Episode 73: Rise and Fly! Lamont Jones and The Gist of Bid Whist

Normally, this is a Bridge podcast, but today my guest is Bid Whist evangelist Lamont Jones. Lamont recently published the book called The Gist of Bid Whist culminating a project he began in earnest in 2012. He's on a mission to share his love for Bid Whist with a wider audience.

If you've ever been curious about Bid Whist, as I have been recently, Lamont and I go through a lot of the differences as well as the similarities between Bid Whist and Bridge. One of the things we don't have in Bridge is trash talk, and that seems to be a huge part of the Bid Whist culture. Whether it's trash talking about taking your opponents to Boston or telling them to rise and fly, I definitely think Bid Whist has Bridge beat when it comes to talking smack.

I could not believe when I read in The Gist of Bid Whist that none other than Bob Hamman said, "Bid Whist is more complex than Bridge." My question to you as a listener, is that a good thing? Overall I've just found Lamont to be a super positive, delightful person, and I'll hope you enjoy engaging with him as I did.

[4:21] Lamont, who is on a tour promoting his book The Gist of Bid Whist, speaks about an event held at the Weeksville Heritage Center in Brooklyn and the history and origin of whist.

[7:02] The lore associated with the game whist.

[9:25] Lamont discussed his favorite chapter from the book: Jeopardy!, The Golden State Warriors and the Notrump Advantage.

[11:25] Taking bridge lessons and encountering many of the same concepts as bid whist.

[15:50] Bid whist tournaments?

[18:23] Relishing competition; the ministry of “replenishing the ranks.”

[21:41] Realizing that card games are more than just about the competition and the fun. They can be meaningful vehicles for connection.

[25:23] The best part of the book journey.

[30:29] Without online whist, Lamont’s book would not exist.

[32:24] Lamont’s dream bid whist table and a wonderful insight that certainly applies to bridge: “I think strong Bid Whist partnerships have an advantage over talented individual players.”

[34:36] Meeting Bob Hamman at a workshop for bridge teachers; his take on bid whist.

[37:25] Lamont’s goals and measure of success with this project.

[42:50] Lamont, boxing and the Premier Boxing Champions platform.

[47:47] Trash-talking in bid whist and the worst whooping at whist ever.

[51:54] Craziest thing Lamont has done to promote The Gist of Bid Whist.

https://gistofbidwhist.com/

Transcript

John McAllister: Hi, my name's John McAllister. Welcome to The Setting Trick Podcast where we get inside the minds of some of the world's greatest Bridge players. If you're looking for a way to engage with Bridge away from the table, then The Setting Trick is here for you.

I could not believe when I read in The Gist of Bid Whist that none other than Bob Hammond said, "Bid Whist is more complex than Bridge." My question to you as a listener, is that a good thing? Overall I've just found Lamont to be a super positive, delightful person, and I'll hope you enjoy engaging with him as I did.

John McAllister: I have with me Lamont Jones. And for everybody listening who thinks this is a Bridge podcast, think again. Lamont is the author of The Gist of Bid Whist, in addition to being quite accomplished as an attorney, and he also plays a little bit of Bridge. Lamont for those watching on video, there's a picture of your book, which just came out on February 27th, I believe, and we kind of have a shared passion of what I'm wanting to do for Bridge I think you're wanting to do for Bid Whist. You're wanting people to know what a great game it is and get them playing.

Lamont Jones: That is absolutely correct. I wrote The Gist of Bid Whist because first of all, I believe that card games connect people. And secondly, I believe that the rich story of Bid Whist is one that deserves to be widely known. I think it's the ultimate trump card game, and I want to share it with people, especially people who like Spades and Hearts and Oh Hell and Euchre and Pinochle and Bridge. And I'll say this, John, this is where you and I are united. I think that the card game tradition, the trick taking game tradition is no less grand than the chess tradition and that we ought to help card games reclaim their place of cultural prominence.

John McAllister: When was the last time you played Bid Whist?

Lamont Jones: Last night. I happened to have a book event in Brooklyn at the Weeksville Heritage Center, and we had a nice robust crew come out and support the book, but also we had some free play. We played Spades, we played Bid Whist. I mentioned offline that my good friend Jeff Bayone of Honors Bridge Club was there, man, he picked up Bid Whist so quickly. I was stunned. I mean, that guy's a card game genius, we know, but he picked it up as quick as anybody I've ever seen pick it up.

John McAllister: And you and I played Bid Whist online. We had one failed attempt in preparation for this interview, and then the second time we finally got it together.

Lamont Jones: I'll be honest with you, John, I thought you had set me up because the first two games you roared through, you ripped me and I thought, man, this guy set me up. He's stacked the deck somehow. But we went on, it got a little bit more even over time. But again, as a Bridge player, it didn't seem to take you very long at all to pick up Bid Whist.

John McAllister: Yeah, yeah. I mean it's different. How do you explain this event in Brooklyn, Jeff came, are you friends with Jeff from prior to that or did he come based on the Bid Whist? Just wanted to check it out.

Lamont Jones: I met Jeff a few years ago at a convention for Bridge teachers in either Toronto or Montreal, I don't remember which. So we became friendly then. I enjoyed his book and his wife, Barbara actually has helped me a lot with my Gist of Bid Whist project. She's helped me prepare the workshop that I used to try to teach the game to people. So Jeff and Barbara have been great supporters and it was a real thrill to shout them out in the acknowledgements of The Gist of Bid Whist.

John McAllister: Got it. So you're on a book tour for the book?

Lamont Jones: I am. Thankfully we've got a bit of sponsorship from the United States Playing Card Company, best known for the Bicycle brand of cards. We've got stops. We had a stop last night in Brooklyn. We've got three stops next week in Los Angeles. We're planning our Chicago stop, and I'm sure there'll be more along the way. But again, the objective is to help spread the word about what I think is the coolest card game.

John McAllister: See, that's where we're going to have odds.

Lamont Jones: You got to have tension. You got to have a little bit of conflict to keep things spicy.

John McAllister: So are you coming to us from New York today or are you back in Chicago?

Lamont Jones: I'm actually in New Jersey.

John McAllister: Okay. How was the event last night?

Lamont Jones: Man, it was terrific. It was just sort of uplifting and affirming. We were at the Weeksville Heritage Center, so we talked quite a bit about the history and the origins of the game. My understanding is that Weeksville was one of the first free African-American communities in the country. So we talked a lot about the Pullman Porters and their role in popularizing Bid Whist.

First of all, their role as sort of respected and revered figures in African-American culture, especially in the early decades of the 20th century. They were folks who weren't tethered to one place for their jobs. They traveled all across the country and in traveling, they shared information. They shared the Black newspapers like the Chicago Defender and the Pittsburgh Courier, and they shared information, "Hey, if you're coming to this city, this is where you can find housing, or this is where you might find job opportunities."

And they shared cultural offerings. "Hey, I heard about this bad new jazz cat. You want to check them out," or "These are the latest blues coming from down south." And one of the things they shared was their favorite pastime, their favorite card game Bid Whist, and they played it so much that it was called the Porters Game. And John, imagine just for a second, if you will, a gathering in Kansas City or New York City or Chicago where you might have one hundred or two hundred or three hundred porters on layovers as they're getting ready to disperse across the nation, and they're all getting together that night, and they're playing cards and talking smack and trying to see who's the best.

So the Porters were instrumental in popularizing Bid Whist. But also the thing that fascinates me about the research about the Porters and Bid Whist is that the game was pivotal for the Porters because they had a long period where it was really tough for them. They weren't able to negotiate a deal with the Pullman Company. They weren't even recognized by the Pullman Company. They didn't have any money. And the leadership in order to keep morale up, would spend time traveling to different cities, playing cards, playing Bid Whist during some of the dark years. So I like to think that the game provided scaffolding for some of the later achievements of the Porters in terms of what they contributed to American society.

John McAllister: And your book, by the way, is very well researched. I was impressed with the depth of knowledge that you came up with. Absolutely.

Lamont Jones: Thank you, John. I mean, that's really meaningful. I really appreciate it. I think the game deserves, there's a lot of lore associated with the game. I'll tell you my favorite piece of it, but I think the game deserves to be sort of celebrated and dealt with in a really fulsome sort of way. So for example, we acknowledge that a lot of the terms seem to have come from the Pullman Porters and their journeys across the country. So we use terms uptown and downtown and going all the way to Boston. But as it turns out, this thing about Boston, which as you know is one of the singular achievements in Bid Whist, it's like the Grand Slam in chess when you win all the tricks, I like to say it's like analogous to a slam dunk and a knockout and a home run all in one.

But that doesn't necessarily come from the Porters. So what the research shows is that the old game of Whist, I like to call it Original Whist, was the most popular game in the whole world in the 1500s, the 1600s, the 1700s, the 1800s, not just the most popular card game, but the most popular game. It was the most popular game in the world, except in one country, France. France had their own version of a trick taking game, very similar to, but they named it in a way to tweak their rivals, the British, by reminding the British about the lost North American colonies. So they called their game Boston, and in that game of Boston, if you want all the tricks, that was also called achieving a Boston. So I think that's where we get the term Boston from in Bid Whist.

John McAllister: Do you have to bid, say you get a Boston, you win all the tricks, do you have to bid seven to get the credit for it? Is it like Bridge or is it like Auction Bridge in that way?

Lamont Jones: Love that question. I don't know Auction Bridge. So I don't know. I can't answer to that extent. But what I can tell you is you score the number of points based on the number of tricks you win, not just the number of tricks you bid. Right?

John McAllister: Okay.

Lamont Jones: So I think that that's a distinction from Bridge, and I think it provides an advantage in Bid Whist, especially with respect to the notrump bids. That thought that you just shared there is the basis for my favorite chapter of The Gist of Bid Whist. It's the chapter that I call Jeopardy!, The Golden State Warriors and the Notrump Advantage. And what I did in that chapter is first of all, there was a guy 10, 12 years ago on Jeopardy who just ran through the game. This was before Holzhauer, more recently. And this fellow talked about how he detected a flaw in the structure of the game, and he exploited that flaw, and that's what allowed him to succeed on Jeopardy.

And I talk about how the Golden State Warriors 10, 12 years ago, they identified what they considered to be a market inefficiency in basketball. Teams weren't valuing the three-point shot enough. They constructed their roster and their team and their philosophy around that three-point shot before other people. And I think in Bid Whist the notrump because you can score more points even than the number of tricks you bid, because on a notrump bid, you're able to play first. You're able to lead first, so the defense has less of an opportunity to find your weaknesses. I think it's an advantage that no trumps that can be exploited in Bid Whist.

John McAllister: You've gone into Bridge. I mean, you're writing books about Bid Whist, you played Bid Whist with your daughter, you've played in kind of national tournaments. You've also played a little bit of Bridge. Tell us a little bit about your Bridge journey.

Lamont Jones: Yeah, keywords, little bit. Here's the thing. I learned to play Bid Whist in law school, and then I moved from the city where I went to law school to another city, and I didn't have a Bid Whist crew, and I missed playing cards. But every day in the newspapers, I'd see something that kind of resembled Bid Whist. There's cards, there's talk I've learned it was Bridge, right? So I decided to take Bridge lessons.

I found a Bridge Club, and I took lessons on Monday nights, three hours a night, eight weeks, whatever the case was. And I found that a lot of the concepts that I had encountered in Bid Whist, I was encountering in Bridge. But I thought, man, it's so cool that this is taught in such a structured way. It's taught in such an unintimidating fashion. Wouldn't it be cool if Bid Whist could be taught in that way? And then after that, of course, I started reading some Bridge books, loved reading Bridge books, playing from time to time. My favorite Bridge book, by the way, is Points Schmoints by Marty Bergen, although I guess I should say my favorite Bridge book is Taste of Bridge by Jeff Bayone.

John McAllister: Okay, he's an [inaudible 00:14:00].

Lamont Jones: There you go. So yeah, man. So I really love reading about Bridge. I like playing from time to time and a lot of the terms, the techniques I found very useful in trying to teach people how to play Bid Whist.

John McAllister: So how many masterpoints do you have?

Lamont Jones: First of all, when I got them, it was 20, 25, 30 years ago. But I never got up to a level beyond whatever the beginning level is.

John McAllister: Okay. So you have some masterpoints, but...

Lamont Jones: Absolutely. But I will say this, I always thought it was an advantage, the fact that I had as few masterpoints as I did. I thought I was a better player than my masterpoints reflection.

John McAllister: Sure, sure, sure.

Lamont Jones: Now my partners and opponents might not have agreed with that.

John McAllister: So as a Bid Whist player, are you envious of the structure that we have in bridge with the American Contract Bridge League and the tournaments? And you and I tried to play on one of the Bid Whist sites and we couldn't figure out how to play together, for example. How would you...?

Lamont Jones: I wouldn't say envious because first of all, Bid Whist to me was a gateway game to Bridge and then Bridge, it was sort of a revolving door. I went back more deeply into Bid Whist after my foray into Bridge. But I think it could be that for a lot of people, I think Bid Whist can be a gateway game to Bridge. And a lot of the Bridge players, I've introduced Bid Whist to pick it up really quickly because the structure of the games are so similar. So I do think that they can work in tandem to help sort of revitalize the card game tradition. I don't think there has to be any competition.

John McAllister: No, I mean, I don't mean that. I just mean sometimes as a Bridge player, I can be critical, I wish things were better, I wish blah, blah, blah. But I think about, we've got hand records in Bridge, for example, and it shows you how many tricks you can take, and there's just an ability to study the game. And I wonder if in Bid Whist there's probably not a double dummy solver, if you play to a tournament, you just deal the cards?

Lamont Jones: To your point, I'm not aware of any duplicate Bid Whist which takes that element of randomness out of it. I'm not aware of that. I do think that Bid Whist can be... So I'll say this, my favorite game to use to teach people Bid Whist is, Oh Hell. I think, Oh Hell is first of all, it's a tremendous and fun game in its own right, but it's a tremendous on-ramp game for Bid Whist. By the same token, I think that Bid Whist as it was for me is and can be a tremendous on-ramp game for Bridge. So yeah, I would definitely like to see some collaboration between the Bid Whist and the Bridge communities.

John McAllister: I mean, you talk in the book about playing with your daughter. Are there many young people that are playing Bid Whist? Is there an organized Bid Whist? There's some tournament stuff. I saw in your book you referenced Card Sharks Bid Whist tournaments, but what's the crown jewel? Like in golf, I don't know if you know anything about golf, but the Masters, winning one of the majors, that's a big deal. Is there a crown jewel of Bid Whist? If you could win this one thing that would be like you know who the winners are or they broadcast it somehow?

Lamont Jones: Well, first of all, I'm a sports fan and American, so of course I know what the top golf tournaments are, right?

John McAllister: Yeah.

Lamont Jones: But I know that Card Sharks has its national tournament. I know that there's another organization, I think it's called the National Bid Whist Alliance that also has local regional tournaments feeding into a national tournament. My understanding is that those two organizations used to be combined, but there was some rift that drove them apart. I don't know the details of that.

But part of my motivation for writing this book was I do think that the game is moving toward a demographic cliff. There aren't a lot of young people who play. I feel that even at my advanced age, I'm one of the younger folks I know who play other than my daughter who I've taught to play. So I do think that part of our challenge is to reinvigorate the ranks with younger people, with people from all different backgrounds. I think that Bridge faces that challenge as well. So hopefully that's something we can tackle.

John McAllister: So you talk in the book about some games in Westchester, outside of New York City. What's the Bid Whist that you most look forward to? What's the version? Is it playing back with the guys who taught you the game in law school? Is it playing with your daughter, or do you... I think about the North American Bridge Championships are starting in 14 days or something. I'm fired up. I was just at a regional tournament in Williamsburg playing for three days. That was great. I mean, basically, I like playing Bridge in any form, but some things are more, there's just more prestige to them.

Lamont Jones: No doubt. Listen, first of all, I've very much relished the competition. I have not yet played in any big national tournaments. That's something I look forward to. But I think my ministry, so to speak right now, is the work to try to replenish the ranks to get more people playing. Then we'll get into the tournaments and such. So I enjoy the social games, like you mentioned the Westchester Whisters. That story is fascinating to me. I met a fellow who is a member of that group, who's one of the quarterbacks of the group, and they've invited me to play there a few times. In a nutshell, these guys got together in the mid-nineties and played Bid Whist one weekend just because all their wives were taking the kids on college tours. And they had such a good time that they played again the next month and the month after that.

And they played together every month now for the better part of 28 years. They took a couple of months off during the early parts of the pandemic, but for 28 years, these guys have gotten together monthly to play Bid Whist. And as they've matured in their careers, they've become doctors and judges and CEOs and corporate executives and politicians and that sort of thing but what bonds them is Bid Whist. And they talk about the fellowship and I was thrilled to write about it in my book and thrilled that so many of those guys came out last night to Brooklyn to our book event.

But man, sometimes John, you're playing with the right group and there's competition in that group to be sure you want to be the best one at the table that night. And sometimes that can be even more powerful than winning a trophy or prizes or match points at a tournament.

John McAllister: So when you play in a format like that, do you have a set partner or do you play with a partner and then once your round is over, you find a new partner? How does that work?

Lamont Jones: Usually there are some folks who fancy themselves partners, but to your point, if there are 20 guys at this event or 20 people at the event, there might only be four tables. So we play what you call Rise and Fly, which is when you lose a game, you got to rise and get out of here so that the next people can come. And there's going to be some smack talking aimed at you when you lose and that sort of thing. But the loss is cushioned by some cocktails and some food and that sort of thing. So the social vibe is paramount, but the competition is nevertheless key.

John McAllister: Yeah. When did you start writing this book?

Lamont Jones: Oh, man, long time ago. I think that the first thing, and you were kind of getting to this a little bit, John, which is since there aren't a lot of players, I wasn't able to play very often after law school. Pretty rarely. I would guess that between law school and the time I started writing this book, I probably only got to play a hundred hands of Bid Whist because it's few and far between. So those hands though, would stay with me. So if I lost or if I made a mistake, I'd be thinking about it. I'd be making notes. I maybe jot down a paragraph or two about it.

So then when my daughter was about eight years old, her mom and I had gone through a divorce. We had my daughter see a therapist, and my daughter told the therapist that she was sad and angry and unhappy about her new life. And the therapist says, "Well, have you told anybody about this?" And she says, "I told my daddy." And the therapist asked, "Well, why'd you tell him?" And Aaliyah, my daughter in her 8-year-old way says, "Well, when I'm with my daddy, we spend a lot of time playing cards, and when you're sitting there playing cards, you got to talk about something, right?"

So that really triggered in me the thought that playing card games is more than just about the competition and the fun. They can be meaningful vehicles for connection. And again, it was around that time that I decided, Hey, I want to teach my son, my daughter, my wife to play. So let me go through this Barnes and Noble right here, and grab a Bid Whist book and share it with them. And the book wasn't there. So that's when I started this project.

John McAllister: So there's literally no book on Bid Whist other than yours?

Lamont Jones: I've seen a couple of books, there's one called Rise and Fly, but there's not one that goes into providing a comprehensive playing guide to actually teach people how to play. The ones I've seen have been more like, Hey, Bid Whist is a great game. Here's some of the luminaries who play the game. It's something you should know about, et cetera. But not taking that step of actually breaking it down and teaching people how to play. So that's what I've tried to do with The Gist of Bid Whist.

John McAllister: Man, that's tough work. Getting people teaching them from scratch, I imagine that's a challenge that you're taking on here.

Lamont Jones: It's one I welcome though, it's a challenge, but I welcome it. And I especially try to protect newcomers, right? Because I've encountered so many people who say, "Man, I don't play cards. I can't play cards. I don't have the card playing gene. When the family plays, even Grandma beats me." I'm welcoming those people to the table.

I'm trying to teach them to play in a step-by-step way that respects their intelligence because I believe that the fundamental card game concepts that drive all these games are accessible and understandable. So I want to protect the reader. I want to respect the reader's intelligence, and I want to enthrall and entertain card players like you, people who already play Spades already play Bid Whist, even as we welcome the newcomers to the table. And I think we've accomplished that.

John McAllister: So how old is Aaliyah now?

Lamont Jones: She's 23, man. And again, it was a thrill last night for her to come out because just a couple of things. Number one, even when she was eight, and as a parent, I think parents might vibe with me on this, we think we know it all, do as I say, right? So I remember in Aaliyah's first Bid Whist gathering I told her "When we're playing defense, don't lead the other side's trump suit." That's a no no. And I remember us playing, it's getting toward the end of the hand, maybe six cards left. She wins a trick. What does she do, she leads the other side's trump suit.

So I'm like, I'm staring at my cards. I don't want to signal her in any way, but she happens to win that trick. What she do, then she leads another trump suit, right? And she won that trick. And after she won that trick, she had pulled all the trump cards and she just in a flash, laid down her remaining three cards, Ace King, Queen, and a side suit. I was like, man, I'm glad she didn't listen to her daddy's instruction.

But maybe the best part of this book journey has been, well, when Aaliyah became a teenager, she sort of moved away. She moved away from Dad a little bit it seems, moved away from Bid Whist. She would only play with me on Father's Day. She's doing her own thing. She was in high school, she's doing her own thing. But when I finally found a publisher willing to take a chance on this sort of niche project before I sent anything to the publisher, Aaliyah very lovingly, very exactingly, edited each and every chapter of this book. And her involvement in this project is one of the most heartwarming parts for me.

John McAllister: Does she live in New York?

Lamont Jones: She's in New York City. Started her career doing her thing.

John McAllister: Has she played Bridge?

Lamont Jones: She's not yet played Bridge.

John McAllister: Sounds like she might be good at it.

Lamont Jones: We got to get her over to Honors Club. There you go.

John McAllister: Yeah. When I lived in New York City, actually after I graduated from college, I lived in New York City, loved Bridge, but the only outlet I had for Bridge at that time was home. I didn't know that there was such a thing as Bridge clubs had no idea. I lived like two blocks from where Honors used to be. Never ventured there. Not one time. I mean, I just can't even imagine, if I had known about Bridge when I lived in New York City. I had a job at points, but I also had a lot of free time and if I had known about Bridge, oh my God, I would've been there every day.

Lamont Jones: Hey, John, what's your experience as far as the differences between playing in person and playing online? Do you discern a big difference in the quality of those two experiences?

John McAllister: I mean, I think playing Bridge in person I prefer, but certainly Covid really boosted online Bridge. And one of my most regular bridge partners lives in Texas, so I'm so grateful that there are both. I love playing Bridge in whatever form. I play Bridge pretty much every day in whatever form. I prefer in person, but I'm not disappointed to play Bridge online at all.

Lamont Jones: Do you ever suspect that your opponents might be cheating?

John McAllister: Oh, absolutely. No, absolutely. There's this thing called a recorder, and so if your opponents do something suspect, you can file a recorder form. And I filed two of those in the last month. There's actually this woman, she had been the president of the Bridge League, and she was on the board of the Educational Foundation, and I played against her and her husband a couple of years ago. And they did something that I thought was just super fishy, and I couldn't believe it based on who the woman was. But I filed a recorder form and they got convicted. I mean, I'm sure it wasn't just my thing, but they got convicted of cheating together and they both got suspended from the Bridge League.

Lamont Jones: I think it's great though that those mechanisms exist to be able to report and eventually catch them.

John McAllister: Yeah, I mean, definitely of the instances recently, they did something that was really good and it was suspicious. But there's a program that's come out since Covid called Edgar, and it's pretty sophisticated software that's able to analyze a lot of hands played. And so I don't necessarily expect that the people are, if they're guilty or not I hate to think that they're being penalized for something that was just they made the right thing. But because of that software, I'm happy to spend five minutes to fill out a recorder form and just let whoever, it feels like there is somebody ultimately that's going to be testing this.

Lamont Jones: I'll share something here that may provide some ground for future collaboration. I'll put it out there. Let me say that but for online Bid Whist, and specifically the Zynga Bid Whist app, my book, The Gist of Bid Whist would not exist. And I'll tell you why. So I mentioned how few opportunities I had to play over the years, but despite those few opportunities, I caught myself writing a book and I drafted a manuscript. And of course, every agent in America ignored it. And of course, every publisher in America probably rightfully ignored it. But because again, I'm like drawing up the hands by hand, like old school, how would I teach this lesson, whatever. And it wasn't until about 2015, 2016 after I had a manuscript that I discovered the Zynga Bid Whist Plus app, right? So now I go from playing say, a hundred or two hundred games or hands of Bid Whist, right now I play tens of thousands. And man, I've learned a lot playing online, right?

So then I went back and I thought, man, how can I capture this feeling, this essence of sitting at the table, the thrills, the joy, how can I capture that in the book? So now I went back and I restructured and added new stuff and just took a totally different approach. So I had a whole different manuscript that I was able to go out and shop and a whole different manuscript that all the agents could ignore and all the publishers could ignore. But it only takes one and thankfully, we found Greg Shaw at Clyde Hill Publishing, and now we have a book, and I think we have a tool that experienced Bid Whist players can use to give to their family members and friends to introduce them to the game, and hopefully a tool that will be of interest to Bridge players as well.

John McAllister: If you could play Bid Whist with one person that's a Bid Whist player, who would it be?

Lamont Jones: Easy, I would play with Thurgood Marshall. He'd be my partner. We'd play against Michael Jordan and Magic Johnson.

John McAllister: Okay, that's pretty good.

Lamont Jones: Yeah, we beat them down. So yeah, that would be my fantasy game. I'd love it if Aaliyah and I could play Bid Whist against anyone. My wife has become a good Bid Whist player. We used to visit some friends in Chicago to play cards, and the games were pretty competitive, and my wife, Stacy would never play, right. She was like, they're serious about it. But she read The Gist of Bid Whist, she was confident the next time we went over there, she sat down, she played, she talked her smack. She won some games. So yeah, my son, Justin, my wife Stacy, my daughter, Aaliyah, my favorite Bid Whist partners living.

John McAllister: Who's the best Bid Whist player you know?

Lamont Jones: I mean, come on, John. You're trying to make me sound like egotistical and all this kind of stuff. I'm not falling for it, but yeah, I'll say this. I think strong Bid Whist partnerships have an advantage over talented individual players. So yeah, I'm going to leave that one alone.

John McAllister: Okay. Did your friends who introduced you to Bid Whist in law school, now that you're playing all these games on the app, could they tell a difference?

Lamont Jones: Good question. I get to play with those guys now from time to time. I'm not sure they can tell a difference though. But I mean, they're strong, solid players. I would play with Randy Nixon or Terry Brown or Sean Long against anybody. I still learn stuff from those guys. Every time I play with them I learn stuff from them. I appreciate their humor and that sort of thing. So yeah, those guys can hold their own against anybody.

John McAllister: What's the story with going to this Bridge teacher workshop?

Lamont Jones: No reason. I think I heard about it. I heard about it, I knew that I'd be able to learn techniques there that would be helpful on my Bid Whist project. I was hoping that I'd meet people. The most interesting fellow I met at that Bridge convention was Bob Hamman. And I approached him after he had delivered a presentation, and I said, "Hey, Mr. Hamman, my name's Lamont Jones. I'm pursuing this Bid Whist project." And he said, "Oh, Bid Whist." He said, "I played Bid Whist. It's way more complex than Bridge." That was mind-blowing for me, man. That was mind-blowing.

John McAllister: Yeah. When I read that in the book, I actually called Bob to be like, "Okay, what's this?" He's like, "Yeah, you can only see your cards."

Lamont Jones: Yeah. Well, and in the book, as you saw, and thank you for reading it, John, I really do appreciate that, even the old game of Whist was considered more complex than Bridge as Bob alluded to, because of the presence of the dummy in Bridge. But not only do you have that in Bid Whist, you have the whole uptown downtown factor that adds another layer of complexity. And then of course you have the kitty, which adds more randomness and more complexity. So there's a lot going on to keep players enthralled and to keep people entertained.

And then the fact that it happens in such a compressed timeframe. The games are short, they're like sprints. So you've got all these strategic considerations and all these tactical considerations happening immediately, happening quickly throughout the game and then before you know what the game is over.

John McAllister: Do you have signals in Bid Whist? If you play a high Club says "I want Clubs," low Club says "I don't want clubs."

Lamont Jones: And I think that goes back to an earlier question, which is I think strong partnerships have an advantage over strong individual players, and I suspect that the best partnerships have some sort of signals, Hey, I mean, there are general principles, for example, return your partner's suit. In some ways, maybe that can be considered a signal, but I suspect that the best partnerships have signals that don't rise to the level of cheating. I abhor cheating, but I suspect that the best partnerships have signals that I probably don't know anything about.

John McAllister: How are you going to know if you're successful with this project?

Lamont Jones: Well, first of all, having Bid Whist on platforms like The Setting Trick helps, but to see Bid Whist talked about on more platforms, to see more people playing Bid Whist, to see younger people talking about and playing Bid Whist to see people from other backgrounds talking about and playing Bid Whist, to help the existing Bid Whist establishment by helping to recruit more players to reinvigorate that, that would be helpful. I think in general, and again, I think I'm optimistic that the Bicycle Playing Card Company will be helpful in this, but we want to get Bid Whist on more platforms, and we want the game to reclaim its place of cultural prominence. That's the objective, that's the mission.

John McAllister: Yeah. And your family, I imagine is among your staunchest supporters in this project? What about Terry and those guys?

Lamont Jones: Love those guys. Randy was with us in Brooklyn last night. I'm sure we'll get Terry and Big Sean out. We've been texting each other, needling each other all morning here.

John McAllister: It's all trash talk. It's more trash talk than anything.

Lamont Jones: That's part of the fun, bro. That's part of the fun. But those guys have been tremendous. Like I said, the Bicycle Playing Card Company has been a good strong supporter. So yeah, we've got to get the game on the lips of the right people. I think that the inherent stickiness of the game once folks are exposed to it...

As a matter of fact, man, like I said last night, Jeff was talking about how much he enjoys the game after his initial exposure. Had one buddy text me and he's like, "Man, this is the first time I've seen this game. But I went home and I downloaded a Bid Whist app, and I couldn't get off that thing until three o'clock in the morning, the game was so addictive and sticky." And again, I hope that all of the trump card games Euchre and Oh Hell, Spades and Hearts, they all deserve a moment in the sun. And if we can help with this project, lift up all of the trump card games, I would consider that a win.

John McAllister: Yeah. Well, congratulations. 15 years from start to finish, that's a real accomplishment. It must feel wonderful to have this thing meaningfully out in the world.

Lamont Jones: Man. It's a labor of love. It's been a labor of love. It's been a passion project. But as far as I'm concerned, John, this is the beginning of the journey, not the end. And man, it's so meaningful to me, John, that you spend as much time as you did with the book. It's clear that you actually read it. That makes my heart sing, so thank you very much, and thank you for having me on.

John McAllister: If people want to get in touch with you, do you have a website for, does the book have a website?

Lamont Jones: Sure. gistofbidwhist.com. I'm also on Twitter at Lamontsixnolow, and that's a Bid Whist phrase, but I am confident that card players will be attracted to Bid Whist.

John McAllister: Yeah, man, it's been fun because I told you offline that I want to do a web series where I introduced primarily retired professional athletes to Bridge. And so one of the things, I wanted to learn how to play Bid Whist because I've seen Dwayne Wade, for example, talk about playing Bid Whist growing up. And so I wanted to understand it, and the opportunity to meet you and play Bid Whist together and read the book has really helped me understand it in a lot deeper level than I would've. So it's been a real blessing to have you come along.

Lamont Jones: Thank you, bro. Hey, I hope that you and I will get together and play in person.

John McAllister: Yes.

Lamont Jones: We need to do that.

John McAllister: Yes. Yeah,

Lamont Jones: So I'll look for opportunities to help make that happen.

John McAllister: All right. Well, if you're in DC, we could maybe do something. Actually, I'll tell you what, I'm going to be in Chicago for the team trials for Bridge in the beginning of May. So I'll reach out to you then.

Lamont Jones: Let's connect for sure.

John McAllister: All right. Thanks a lot, Terry,

Lamont Jones: [inaudible 00:44:07] He'll love that, man. John, I'm never going to hear the end of it. He's going to love that.

John McAllister: Okay well let's keep it in there.

Lamont Jones: He's going to like, Hey, [inaudible 00:44:14] knows that I'm the main guy at Bid Whist.

John McAllister: We'll have to keep that in there.

Lamont Jones: Absolutely.

John McAllister: All right, Lamont, it's been a pleasure, man.

Lamont Jones: Thank you, John. I appreciate you.

John McAllister: All right, so I'm back with Lamont. This is two days after we talked initially, and I realized that there were a couple of questions that I wanted to ask you that I did not. First of all, you're involved in boxing and you work for Premier Boxing. Am I getting the name right?

Lamont Jones: Premier Boxing Champions is the platform. It was founded by Alan Hayman, who is the advisor to dozens, if not hundreds of elite professional boxers. He's probably best known in the boxing sphere for being the advisor for Floyd Mayweather Jr. But he has managed and advised dozens of champions, and he is the force behind some of the best and biggest events in the boxing space.

John McAllister: Wow. And then you worked for, you were the head of USA boxing, is that right?

Lamont Jones: Many years ago, I was executive director of USA Boxing our Olympic boxing program. That too was a passion play for me because growing up I had a couple of hundred amateur boxing matches and never really got it out of my system. So it's been thrilling for me to eke out a living as a lawyer in the boxing space.

John McAllister: When you say eke, are you exaggerating?

Lamont Jones: It is been fun to be a part of it. I think I've had a ringside seat to a lot of the goings-on in the sport, and that's been thrilling for me.

John McAllister: There's a picture, for example, of you with Sugar Ray Leonard on The Gist Bid Whist website.

Lamont Jones: Oh, man. That was a thrill. So that was the night before Hayman officially launched the Premier Boxing Champions platform. We did that at the Saturday Night Live studios. I had the honor of being the spokesperson for the Premier Boxing Champions platform on that occasion. So it was a festive occasion the night before with Sugar Ray Leonard and Tommy Hearns and Roberto Durán, and a lot of the legends of the sport.

John McAllister: And you were the MC for that?

Lamont Jones: I was the spokesperson for Premier Boxing Champions.

John McAllister: Got it.

Lamont Jones: There was an NBC personality as the MC.

John McAllister: Got it. So if we look on YouTube, could we find that somewhere?

Lamont Jones: Oh, absolutely. No question. You'll want to look for, there was a cool commercial because this was the first time boxing had returned to primetime network television with elite boxing matches in several decades. So NBC did a really cool commercial that featured Sugar Ray Leonard that featured Al Michaels, and I guess they had to have the PBC spokesperson somewhere in that commercial. So you might glimpse a familiar face there.

John McAllister: And so is that the deal still with Premier, that you guys are doing boxing matches on network television?

Lamont Jones: Our first show on Amazon is coming up later this month, March 30, PBC on Amazon headlined by Tim Tsyzu from Australia against former champion Keith One-Time Thurman. So that should be a fun event for boxing fans.

John McAllister: So do you get to go to a lot of boxing matches then?

Lamont Jones: That's one of the perks.

John McAllister: That's cool, man. I've never been to a fight,

Lamont Jones: Man, nothing like it. And I think even people who are involved with other sports will tell you that there's nothing like the energy right before the bell of a big time championship boxing match. It's something special.

John McAllister: Can you give me one or two of your favorite matches that you've been fortunate enough to attend?

Lamont Jones: Good question, man. Let's see. It was special for me when Errol Spence, who I guess I'm not supposed to have a favorite premier boxing champions fighter, but I really have enjoyed Errol's career from the very beginning. And he had a horrific car accident, but he emerged from that and came back to the Ring, even during the Covid period, had a big fight AT&T Stadium in his hometown of Dallas, Texas.

John McAllister: Wow.

Lamont Jones: So that was thrilling. I think probably the best knockout of the premier boxing champions era was when Devonte Tank Davis fought my good friend Leo Santa Cruz on Halloween night in San Antonio during the depths of Covid. I was there for that one. So yeah, man, there's been a few thrills along the way for sure.

John McAllister: And the other thing I wanted to ask you about is the trash talk of Bid Whist. You alluded to it a little bit the other day. You talked about Boston. You talked about Rise and Fly, which I think is hilarious. What does it sound like when your opponents are saying rise and fly to you? I feel like that they say that there's some energy to it.

Lamont Jones: There's some energy to it. I'll tell you, the worst Bid Whist butt whooping. I have personally sustained, the reason it's memorable for me is because as the fellow was administering this whooping, he was teaching me a word that I previously haven't heard before.

So I'm sitting next to him, John, imagine this. He's sitting to my right. Let's say he's running spades and I realized early on that neither my partner nor I had any spades. And this guy's just with these spades, right? So when he had about five cards left, he's still hitting me with it. Another fellow entered the room, he'd arrived late, he had a six-pack of beer or whatever, and I said, "Hey, man, come on. Sit down. You can take my seat." And the fellow who was rapping me with the spades said "Oh yeah, you going to get your ass up." He said, "Don't act like you're being magnanimous. I'm ejecting you from that seat. Get up, rise and fly."

It's part of the action, man. It's part of the charm of the game. But what I want to make sure that doesn't happen is this. I don't want the folks who are witnessing this and hearing the laughter to be intimidated by it. Right?

John McAllister: Right.

Lamont Jones: So what we're trying to do in The Gist of Bid Whist is we want to give people the tools they need to be able to compete and play the game, and then be able to enjoy the reverie and the smack talk and the laughter without feeling like you're going to necessarily be victimized by it.

John McAllister: And then Boston, you talked about it the other day, I have a hard time believing it comes from France. But like I said, you did your research. If someone does a Boston to you, is that the end of days?

Lamont Jones: You know what? I guess to some, but my view on it might be a little bit contrarian. And by the way, on the research on Boston, I have to give credit to Professor Julian Laderman. I don't know if you know Julian?

John McAllister: Oh yeah.

Lamont Jones: May he rest in peace. He passed recently. He was very helpful to me on this project, but he was the one who first alerted me to the game, Boston and its origins and that sort of thing. But here's my contrarian view. I think the Boston is kind of like the slam dunk in basketball. Certainly you don't want to be dunked on, you don't want the man putting his junk in your face or what have you. But at the end of the day, it's two points.

So let me run a four no trump on you, or as my Twitter name suggests, a six no trump on you. That's not just the mere seven points, right? A four no is eight, five no is ten, six no is 12 points. So I didn't get the Boston, you won a trick or two. But if I'm getting double the points on those no trump contracts, that to me is like the three pointer in basketball. So you can have your slam dunk, you get your bragging rights with it but I'll take my barrage of three pointers, like the Golden State Warriors, and we'll go ahead and get you up out of here so you can rise and fly.

John McAllister: Oh man.

Lamont Jones: We got to play in person, John.

John McAllister: Yeah, we're going to do it. We're absolutely going to do it. Okay. Last thing. Craziest thing you've ever done in support of your mission here, with your Bid Whist mission?

Lamont Jones: Craziest thing, nothing strikes me as out of bounds here, right? I mean, the objective is to help sustain this game, to bring the people to the game. Some people would say that the terms I use to teach the game, many of which I borrowed from Bridge books, I borrowed from the Bridge classes I've taken, some might object to that. Some might say I'm watering it down, so to speak. But I recognize that I've adopted a hybrid approach here. But sometimes there's a fine line between reverence and respect for the game and innovation and trying to protect and preserve it. So I'll take that criticism, but yeah, nothing strikes me as outlandish here.

John McAllister: Okay. I think about when I went to the UVA, I live in Charlottesville, Virginia, I went to the UVA Club Fair a couple of years ago, and there was no... I would love, we have a Bridge club at UVA now because there's a young woman who's in school who's making that happen. But there was no semblance of a Bridge club. But I went to the fair because I wanted to see if anybody would be just even remotely interested. I just wanted to check it out, see what was going on. And anyway, let me ask you. I just felt like that was, I mean, it's like, what am I doing?

Lamont Jones: There you go. So you played Bridge in numerous countries, I understand.

John McAllister: Yeah.

Lamont Jones: What's the most interesting place you've played, or the most off the beaten path.

John McAllister: So every other year, the European Championships are open to anybody in the world can play. And in 2015, they were in Tromso, Norway, which is in the Arctic Circle. So it was in the summer, and I went up there. I was up there for 10 days, and the sun doesn't set. And it is, it's so unusual. I'm so used to sort of it getting dark and it's telling me I need to go to sleep, but it doesn't happen there. I mean, it gets darker, but that was just a wild experience for me. That definitely stands out. But part of the thing that's really cool about Bridge, Lamont is I've played Bridge in, I think 17 countries. And I know people everywhere I go. There's people that I've come across at some point in time, and I wish that for you. I wish that for you with Bid Whist?

Lamont Jones: No, no, no. We're on the same team on this, man.

John McAllister: No, I'm not saying I'm not. But I want you to have, I mean-

Lamont Jones: I'm agreeing. We're in violent agreement here, right?

John McAllister: Okay.

Lamont Jones: We're both evangelists for card games. We're both evangelists for the trick taking game tradition. We both want to see it reclaim its place of prominence. You mentioned Deborah Drysdale and her efforts. What's her partner's name? I haven't met him yet.

John McAllister: A guy named Amaresh Deshpande. He's from India, and I did an episode, he's been on The Setting Trick before.

Lamont Jones: Wow.

John McAllister: So you're joining that august crew.

Lamont Jones: Yeah. I'll have to go back and check that out. But Jeff Bayone, there's work for us to do and there I hope that we can partner to bring these things back to the cultural forefront.

John McAllister: And I had to look up, I was pretty sure that Thurgood Marshall was dead, but I had to look it up. And so since he's not available, maybe you and me can take on Magic and MJ, although I'm probably not your top choice.

Lamont Jones: No, no, no.

John McAllister: I'll see if I can help make that happen.

Lamont Jones: I trust your skills. We'll have to make sure that my dad in-law, Butler Sharp, gets a chance to sit in. He's another good player. He's more of a riverboat gambler with his style. I'm a little conservative. I've got a buddy named Jim Reynolds who is an investment banker. He gave me a nice blurb for the book, but he's really analytical with his approach. Randy Nixon, Terry Brown, Sean Long, those guys. So we will have a nice crew, man. We'll have a nice round-robin situation.

John McAllister: Okay. All right. Sounds good, man. Thanks again for coming back on. Is there something else you wanted to...?

Lamont Jones: I just want to thank you, man. I want to thank you for having me on, and I want to thank you for what you're doing to advance the card game tradition.

John McAllister: Thanks, man. Absolutely. It's been a pleasure, and I look forward to meeting you in person in a couple of months when I'm in Chicago.

Lamont Jones: Let's do it.

John McAllister: All right.

Lamont Jones: All right.

John McAllister: One of my takeaways from this conversation is just how lucky we are as Bridge players. We've got this huge infrastructure around the game, all the way from National Bridge Organizations to untold Bridge books, just this whole cornucopia of literature and online learning and films and sometimes I take that for granted.

And even that's how I started on this journey with the Setting Trick was because we wanted to introduce Bridge to more young people. But we have so much, it's such a rich game, and I'm really grateful to Lamont for helping me to see that and also fired up to play some Bid Whist in person and maybe talk some smack.

Please let me know your takeaways. Email me at john@thesettingtrick.com. Both your praise and criticism help this become a better show. And as always, thanks for listening.