Ep. 85 Jason Hackett AKA Prime Mutton

Today’s guest is bridge player turned burgeoning social media star Jason Hackett, also known as Prime Mutton. A frequent traveler, guinness reviewer, and 2019 Eurotransnational winner, Hackett and I had much to discuss. We talk about the strangest food he’s tried during his travels, how he broke out on YouTube and Instagram, and his favorite bridge formats.

Jason’s mother Olivia introduced him and his twin brother to bridge at eleven years old. Though Jason does not discuss bridge much on his social media channels, he is a formidable opponent. He beat Boye Brogeland and Geir Helgemo in the Euro Juniors in 1994 and has represented England in the European Championships many times. Of bridge, he said “I just enjoy playing, it does not matter with whom.” You can read more about Jason in his recent Esquire feature.

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Episode Highlights:

4:59 – Eating brains, grasshoppers, and more

6:25 – Jason’s travel stats, and the types of places he likes to visit

8:51 – Where did the name come from? You can read more about the origins of Prime Mutton in this article

9:50 – Is Guinness better if it's flowing more?

12:10 – Hackett’s longest tenured partnerships in bridge even though they support opposite Manchester football clubs

16:41 – You need to watch some of Jason’s cameos. The products on his website are also fantastic, especially this pillow on his website - “you never get wet in the pub!”

21:15 – Jason explains how his YouTube channel took off

30:30 – Why Jason’s preferred bridge format is pairs

40:46 – The types of places where Prime Mutton gets recognized

48:41 – How Jason edits his videos

55:27 – Jason’s love for bridge started in his teens

57:40 – Rubber bridge

1:03:30 – You can keep up with Prime Mutton on his website

1:06:22 – How Jason learned to tell a good pint from a bad one

John: I am here today with, uh, possibly, one of the, uh, more famous Bridge players in the world. Uh, uh, about a month ago, there was an article posted on Bridge Winners about Prime Mutton, AKA Jason Hackett, and I thought I really need to interview, uh, you for the podcast. And, amusingly, as we were talking before, uh, here, before we started recording, Jason, [piano music] you mentioned that we've never actually talked, [laughing] talked to each other in spite of seeing each other at Bridge tournaments over the years. So, uh, it's a pleasure to, uh, to finally speak. Tell us a little bit, uh, about, uh, about your, your other persona, Prime Mutton.

Jason Hackett: Well, for a long time during the lockdowns, like most of us, we all got a bit bored and started watching more social media than we ever did before. And I obviously have a lot of experience over the years, traveling mainly for Bridge, but other things as well, trying different foods and drinks. And honestly, a lot of the stuff I saw was a load of tripe on YouTube from people who were basically very good looking.

But I don't know if I'm allowed to use, use a slightly colloquial phrase here. They didn't know their ass from their elbow when it came to like a good pint of Guinness or a good meal or how to travel or where to stay. So I thought, well, I don't actually know how to film and edit, but I've got a better story to tell. So start doing my brains [?] in on camera equipment and learn the hard way.

John: So one of the first trips that you took, post COVID, uh, I, I, I really loved this, was to Pakistan.

Jason: Yes. That's-, whe-when I went over, a lot of my friends and fellow Bridge players, they saw me on Real Bridge playing an English tournament. And the-, it was a bit of a problem because I was on mute because I didn't want the outside noise to interfere with that Bridge. And I said something forgetting that I was off camera-, on camera, and they said, "What are you doing? You're supposed to have your audio on." So I turned it on and the muezzin around the corner was giving out the call to prayer and they called the director and complained about the noise.

So the director said, "What's this noise [inaudible]? What do you want me to do? Go around and tell the muezzin to tone it down a bit?" So we had an agreement that I went back on silent. But, anyway, I went there because I'd seen a lot of other bloggers go there. It looked fascinating. Somewhere where not a lot of people go and more, crucially, at the end of 2021, it was about as far east as I could go without running into quarantines.

John: Had you been to Pakistan before that?

Jason: I had once. I played a Bridge tournament there in Karachi about a decade ago. I quite liked it. My brother, who I play with, was s-scared, lifeless, and wouldn't leave the hotel. But I went around with other people to various venues and I thought, yeah, there's a lot going on here. It's quite interesting. It's not a boozer's paradise, shall we say, but apart from that, it's, it's all right.

John: What was the tournament in Karachi?

Jason: Um, they-, I've forgotten the name of the tournament, but they play or used to play one every year with decent prize money. And the invite basically consisted of them looking after us once we'd arrived in the country. And one of my friends, it was-, I think it was either Tom Paschke or Ed Jones, was a bit perturbed by the police escort with flashing lights that they got to the hotel. And when they stopped the [?] lights, they went, oh, these people are staring at them.

At least for me, it's not too bad because until I open my mouth, they might think I'm a local with my skin color. But for them, I mean, they stood out, stood out like sore thumbs. But it was a nice tournament and we won the teams and everybody was really hospitable. And I thought, well, you know, if I go back, I feel reasonably safe, particularly with them helping me around and showing me where to go.

John: I was amused that you ate brains. Uh, who--

Jason: Mm-hmm. Well, funnily enough, I had brains again 10 days ago, but this time it was in Paris, having sheep's brains. But the brains masala I had in Karachi, like Pakistani foie gras, really good texture, very meaty flavor, and I, I'd have them again anytime. I know a lot of people are squeamish about it, but, you know, there's a reason why these dishes are on the menu, especially [inaudible] market restaurants.

John: What do you, wh-what do you think is like the most-, the, the, the, the unusual thing that you've eaten?

Jason: Uh, well, in China, this year, I had something called Xiamen sandworm, which was all right, but, I mean, the people around me thought they'd seen the second coming of Christ when they were eating this. But i-iit didn't do a lot for me. And I've had grasshoppers and other insects. Actually, I was a bit squeamish about having that, but it was incredibly bland. In fact, I've had-, I think I've had it actually in Mexico without [inaudible] realizing it. Chapulines, I think they call it, and It's cheap protein and doesn't really have a place in a fine restaurant, as far as I'm concerned.

John: How many countries have you been to?

Jason: I sometimes count this up. It depends how you count it. If you count places, um, like Hong Kong and Greenland, which aren't strictly their own countries, then about 87. If you take those places away, it's about 80, 81, something like that. Hope to get to-, into three figures. But I'm not one of these people who wants to do all of them and have to travel around in armed convoys in the Central African Republic or somewhere like that. I mean, I'm hardly going to do a food vlog from places like that. I mean, unless I'm wrong, and there are Central African restaurants all over big cities like New York and London, but I-I'm yet to see one.

John: And would you count like being on the tarmac in-, uh, would you count that as having been to a country?

Jason: No. Airports don't, airports don't count. For example, I don't claim to have been to Hawaii, even though I've transited Honolulu airport three, four times.

John: Wow.

Jason: So it's somewhere I need to go.

John: Wow. That's amazing. That-, I mean, Hawaii's-, I've only been there once.

Jason: Mm.

John: Yeah.

Jason: I guess I'd like it. But my idea of a holiday is somewhere that's quite culturally different, um, rather than somewhere-, I mean, I don't mind English-speaking places, but I, I like to go somewhere where there's a bit of a culture shock. So in that way, Pakistan really did fit the bill.

John: Right. Have you ever-, in all your travels, have you ever felt unsafe anywhere?

Jason: Mm. That's a good question. There was one occasion when I was in Beirut in Lebanon and I met some people on the plane. I was traveling from Dubai and I got upgraded and they invited me out for dinner. I think it was some well-to-do guy from Dubai. And then when I got a lift afterwards, and I was absolutely plastered at the time, I thought, God, they could be taking me anywhere, these people. But they did just take me back to the hotel. That, that's, more or less, the only time that I thought I've done something a bit risky.

John: Um, so in addition to the Esquire article, there was another article, uh, that explained, uh-, it answered several of my questions. So it answered the question about how you got the nickname Prime Mutton.

Jason: Well, yeah. It's an oxymoron, really. Because mu-mutton can't really be prime and I think my taste is prime and my body is mutton rather than prime lamb, so...

[laugh]

John: So, so mutton actually couldn't be prime? It's--

Jason: No. Can't, can't be prime. Well, okay. If you Google prime mutton, you will find some, uh, farmers in New Zealand and Wales claiming to sell it. But, I mean, old sheep. I don't think that's prime. It's like, you know, people when they go, "Oh, have a rack of lamb, please. No, no. Have a rack of old sheep instead." Possibly not.

John: And then, one of the other questions that it answered was, is does the Guinness-? Because you-, a lot of your Prime Mutton, uh, is, is about reviewing Guinness right?

Jason: Yeah. Yeah.

John: And, uh, and, and one of my questions was, is the Guinness better the more that it's flowing at a, at a bar, which, uh-?

Jason: Absolutely. It is a very delicate drink. It needs to flow through the lines because if it doesn't, it can get stuck in the lines, it goes off ridiculously quickly. And if anybody disbelieves me, I would encourage them to buy a pint of Guinness, leave it for 15 minutes and then get another one and come back and taste the difference. And you often get something that's fresh and tasty versus something manky and sour. Now, if the pub doesn't look after the Guinness, clean the lines regularly, keep the cooler system tight close to the tap, then you're not going to get a good pint anyway. But assuming they do, it will make a huge difference.

John: You also s-said that, uh, that, uh, it depends on-, like you can't-, like washing the glasses in the dishwasher is bad.

Jason: Yeah. Especially if there's been tea, coffee, food, dairy products. You, you have to wash, wash them separately. And even, to be honest, washing Guinness glasses where lager or blonde beers have been, that, that can taint the taste. If you have limes that are used sometimes by blonde beers, again, that can taint the taste as well. It is so, so delicate. And to get the best pint of Guinness, the pub has to get a million and one things right. And some of these places in Dublin and other parts of Ireland, very complex operation. And most importantly, if the Guinness goes off the boil, Guinness actually come and help them. And now, in fact, in Ireland, every pub that serves Guinness, Guinness come and clean the lines for them. They don't want the pubs doing it themselves.

John: Wow. You said off the boil. What does that mean?

Jason: Off the boil means that it's off form, not drinking so well. Um, it, it's a British phrase we use. So, uh, for example, if your favorite sports team has gone on a bad run of form, you'd say they've gone off the boil after a good start to the season or something like that.

John: Got it. Got it. Um, speaking of sports, you're a Man City fan.

Jason: Yes.

John: But I think your brother is a Man United fan.

Jason: Yes, yes. We, uh, often talk about sport, mainly, and food and drink. And when it comes to sport, we have-, as they say in diplomatic terms, we have constructive and cordial discussions about football and disagree all the time. Not, not in any nasty way or anything.

John: But Man City hasn't really been that good for-, they, they haven't been-, they've only been good for [inaudible] fairly short period of time relative to Man U, right?

Jason: They were good in the 1970s, maybe very early 1980s and then dipped and had a terrible 25 years. And-, okay, I'll say it is due to the United Arab Emirates group that took over the club that the money got pumped in, which made us competitive again. And apart from this season, we've most definitely been the best team for about 6 or 7 years.

John: And so, were you like a long-suffering Man City fan who got, uh...?

Jason: Well, I was taken by my mother to Maine Road, their own ground in 1976. I can't say I was a die-hard regular. Because there were times when I was starting out doing what I'm doing that I couldn't afford the season tickets and everything. Now I can comfortably do so. So, in those days, I went to the odd game here or there. Now I go to every game I can. And I've, I've been going to every game that I can for, not quite 20 years, but I'd say something between 15 and 20 years.

John: Wow. So you must be thrilled then with the new ownership?

Jason: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And the manager, Pep Guardiola. But sometimes Bridge does get in the way. Because, last season, I went to every single home and-, or two seasons ago when we won the Champions League, I went to every single home and away Champions League both in Manchester and Europe. I went to the away game in Madrid but the two games I missed, one, because I was playing Bridge in China. It was the four-nil win against Real Madrid, which is possibly Manchester City's best-ever performance. And I missed the final in Istanbul because I was playing in Strasbourg in the European Open. So I sometimes questioned whether it's worth playing Bridge to collect the money when these are once-in-a-lifetime experiences you've missed.

John: And you had, you had on your, uh, on your page you had a, you had a GoFundMe to get you to the US for the World Cup.

Jason: Yes, that's right. I don't like having to do that. I prefer people support me through stuff like buying cameos and merchandise from my website, which is one of my main, uh, sources of social media income. But the prices for the tickets in the United States, the sports events, are eye-watering. This is a new event and to watch the final, I would have to-, well, I've bought the tickets now, conditional on city getting there. It's like $920 or $900 to sit on the top tier in the worst seats in the ground following City behind the goal. And $2000 if you want to be on the lower tier. And, of course, having paid out the money to FIFA, I've just seen a message flash whilst we're talking from City, cheaper [?] seats available for the Club World Cup. So I guess hardly anybody's going at the prices they're asking for. So I am doing--

John: Oh, this isn't even the World Cup, like the-?

Jason: No, not, not the ones like in Qatar where Argentina won [inaudible]. This is one for clubs and they historically had very small 17 [inaudible]. The European team always wins and they've expanded it now to-, I can't remember whether it's 24 or 32 teams now. But there are a lot of, um, European teams going, some South American, from all over the world. And it could well be a great competition, but it could be a glorified friendly if the clubs, particularly from Europe, don't put everything into it.

John: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah. I watched some of your cameos.

Jason: They usually all finish the same way, su-suggesting people go for absolute creamers.

John: Tell us about the, tell us about the-, I mean, the, the, the absolute cream-, it's an absolute creamer. That's hilarious. I also love that you've got a pillow on your website with this phrase on it. Uh, 'you never get wet in the pub'.

Jason: Yeah. An old Irish saying that is there. It's raining outside. So if, uh, the wife starts complaining, you know, you're staying dry by being in a pub. So...

John: You've got iPhone cases available on your...

Jason: Yeah, yeah, all sorts of things. We've got beach towels coming out now as well and hoodies. And one Muttonista, as I call my followers, his girlfriend, uh, had apparently been spending too much time cuddling the Muttonista cushion instead of him. So it must have a bit of effect there.

[laugh]

John: Did you-, how did you start doing merch?

Jason: Basically because a lot of my followers were asking and asking and asking for it, mainly the US based followers. Once I got over 100,000 followers, I thought this is the time to launch it, time to launch the cameo, because you're in a better position if you have that following. And it's commercially proved to be quite a hit. Obviously not many people are interested in these things in January, but otherwise, you know, it's just been-, it's been very good.

John: How many cameos have you recorded, uh, this week?

Jason: This week is n-, it's been fairly gentle. I think it's about 50 or something like that.

John: Oh, my God.

Jason: Well, you say, oh, my gosh. I, I-, when I first started on Cameo, I was doing like 35 a day for a while.

John: Oh, my God.

Jason: I remember when I went to play Bridge in China in the summer, I flew from Dublin because the UK taxes on-, because I flew in-, I fly on business when I go that far because of my size and because of-, well, you know, I'm getting on a bit. And it was quite cheap from Dublin. So I thought, well, I'm arriving in Dublin the day before, because I can't take risks with the connection. I'll go and do a vlog.

And I got to the room absolutely knackered after a morning flyer [?]. I thought, how I'm I going to do this? I've got 39 of these cameos to do. So I just sat there, waded through, went and did my vlog, which was about Beamish in Dublin. It's a cork stout, so it's a bit of a controversial thing. And as it always happens at the end in Ireland, I go somewhere for a quiet pint. The manager recognizes me and he says, "Try the Murphy's here." Before I knew it, I'm looking at my watch and it's half 3 with a 12 a.m. flight to [inaudible] "Oh, God. I've done this again." And I did make my flight.

John: Um, man. That-, just the stuff about the-, I mean, that you've got like one bar in Dublin you said is the best place for Guinness.

Jason: Yeah, I think it's the Grave Diggers. I mean, the thing is, it can vary from keg to keg, day to day. But, on the whole, they're quite consistent. I remember on one trip there, there's a place called the Cobblestone, which I thought was the best. But, more often than not, I find I prefer the stuff at the Grave Diggers. And the landlord, Ciaran Kavanagh, lovely, lovely guy, very approachable, also a big foodie, and they've got a good restaurant next door, which is quite hard to get a table at.

John: My, my stepfather's Irish and we were in Ireland in August. Unfortunately I didn't know about Prime Mutton at that... Yeah. I did--

Jason: Yeah, that-, some of my most popular YouTube vlogs are the, uh, pub crawls and reviews in Ireland that usually spin out of control at the end. They seem to be a big hit with my followers. They do.

John: And how did it-, I mean, like, I understand how it started, but how did it like-, what was it like, you know, when you started doing it? Were you a hit immediately or?

Jason: No, no. It took a lot of, a lot of, um, hard work putting up videos, which, admittedly, were not particularly well-filmed, not very well presented and not very well edited either. And sometimes you would get-, I mean, I think there's one that's still only got like 100 views or something. But, you know, you get bigger and bigger and bigger, um, getting better, you know, cutting out the hesitations and speech. Actually making sure the camera is pointing in the right direction, making sure you've got the right mics and gimbals and everything like that.

And two things really got me going. On YouTube, it was a visit to Real Madrid where we were losing-, so we were winning and we were two goals up with like a minute to go and Real Madrid got two goals nowhere [?] when in extra time. And the other city vloggers all cut the video off before that, deliberately, out of spite. I just filmed the whole thing. I filmed a good food and drink segment instead of just sitting in the plaza [inaudible] like most of the away fans do.

And my phone was pinging away with comments and all sorts of hundred and thou-, a hundred and a thousand viewers very quickly. For some vloggers is not that big, but for me it was. And then the big thing on Instagram was going to the Grave Diggers and other pubs in Dublin and reviewing. Because there are a lot of people who review Guinness out there, but they, they don't stray from where they live very much. And the thing is, its miles better in Ireland than the people saw me reviewing from there.

And it was just a-, again, this was just a massive stroke of luck, this was. City were playing away in Burn, and, by far, the cheapest way to go was to go to Dublin. So I thought, well, there's somebody who, who might want me to play a Bridge event with them, so I'll go there for a few days and then fly on to Switzerland. And when I was [inaudible] I stood in the Grave Diggers, I was doing a YouTube clip for this vi-, football video, sort of starting it with a twist in a country that's got nothing to do with the match. And I thought, well, I'll do an Instagram reel as well, whilst I'm at it. And my Instagram following before that was about 900 followers. And about three weeks later, it was up to like 76,000 or something. So...

John: Wow.

Jason: So I think that qualifies as a viral video.

John: Yeah. Have you, uh, have you attempted to, like, cross over your, your vlog with Bridge at all, or given any sort of-, uh, or have you just completely avoided, uh...?

Jason: I have, I have avoided it. Actually, a lot of people have asked me about this and I, I said, well, I'm not somebody qualified to teach people because teaching beginners is a completely different skill set. I, I just point people towards either the English Bridge Union, the ACBL, the European Bridge League or the Australian Bridge Federation. So-, but that's best to get your information there. Because if they're younger people, which they mainly are, I'm not going to try and big up a game which is basically marketed at older people at lower levels.

I don't know what it's like in the States, but if you go to most Bridge clubs, except for a few big cities in Britain, it's stuffed with the blue rinse brigade in their 80s and 90s with dragons on the club committee looking for any s-, tiny faux pas to get you suspended or something. I mean, I mean, you have to learn the club rules more carefully than the actual game in some of those places. So until Bridge [cough] aims itself a bit more at people who are younger and want a good time when they're playing, I'm hesitant to recommend it to people who follow me because they like going out to restaurants or drinking beer and stuff like that.

John: You don't play in the States that much.

Jason: Used to. I've been to a lot of nationals, but, um, rather than getting people asking us over from the States, it used to be people from Europe who wanted us to, us to come and team up with them. And up until, I think it was the fall national [inaudible] Orlando in 2018, going from time to time, but the COVID pandemic really scuppered [?] that unfortunately. And whatever anybody thinks, apart from the very top level of the game, which I suppose that was, it's not really come back properly, in my opinion, with a few exceptions.

John: What do you call, what do you call the European championship that you won?

Jason: It's the European open. The, the, the closed championship is for selected national teams all of the same nationality. This-, it's a bit like the World Transnational, but held in Europe. And it has a lot of the same participants as, uh, as the World Transnational. It was in Istanbul actually, which is a great city, in my opinion. And also a very lucky city for me because we won that there, and City won the European Cup or the Champions League in Istanbul as well.

John: You know, it's funny because just in researching for this podcast, it-, they call the, uh, the European national like the ch-, closed, they call that the European opens. And so they call of this other one-, but I'm used to calling it like you said, you know. Uh, so you won that, uh, [inaudible] was on your team, who I know.

Jason: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Ed Jones who you don't-, wouldn't see too much now. But both very fine players. And it's quite a pity that COVID came and kind of collapsed the team, unfortunately.

John: Is that your best, is that your best win?

Jason: Um, I don't know. We, um, played and got to the final of the, um, what they used to call the team's Olympiad and I think it's called the World Bridge Games now in Beijing. So we got a silver medal lost to Italy by 30. But, obviously, we don't know what ingredients went into the pasta sauce in that occasion so...

John: When you say Olympiad, like, you mean like the tournament that, uh, that was this year [inaudible]?

Jason: Yeah. Sa-same one, yeah. Mm-hmm.

John: Oh, wow. Oh, I didn't realize that was, uh...

Jason: Yeah. 2008 it was. So some people might say that was a greater achievement. I don't know. I will add, by the way, that for all these medals at teams, the one I actually crave the most is at pairs. I love pairs and border match. I don't like the idea that a small number of big boards can decide any tournament and how skillfully making an extra trick is irrelevant. And I think pairs and border match, uh, they address that very well. Sadly, because of all the flag waving and nationalities stuff, pairs always takes second seat really to teams events.

John: So what would you-, what-what-what-what would you say was your most desired title then?

Jason: It would be the World Pairs Championship. Although, back in the day, I think I played in all the finals between... When was it? Albuquerque, 1994 and 2008 or 2010. And it was for pairs from the same country only back then. And now they've made it a transnational for reasons that I don't like. But I won't say what they are because I might get into trouble broadcasting. [crosstalk]. And that, that was, that was the pinnacle. That was the pinnacle.

Well, if you, if you look back at why transnational pairs and teams were allowed, because the Rosenblum preceded that. Actually, I think it was, it was earlier than that. It might have been Montreal where, for reasons I don't quite fathom, some transnational teams were allowed in an event where it explicitly stated that players had to be from the same country, and losing the quarterfinal to one of these transnational teams leaves me a little bit sore.

John: Oh, I see. So is your brother Justin your main Bridge partner?

Jason: Yes, yeah. Probably one of the world's most long-standing partnerships. And, again, COVID has messed things up. I mean, partly because he, you know, wanted to spend more time at home with his wife. Partly because I'm pursuing this social media career. We've probably not been polishing and practicing as much as we should do really. So it's, uh, it's still a good partnership. And, to be honest, because of the social media and I'm playing less and there's less pressure on me to win every match and succeed, I'm actually enjoying it a lot more, if I must say.

John: He and his wife were in, uh, were in Iceland where, where I was just recently. I had a nice chat with, uh, with his wife. We were watching the handball, uh, uh, some nats [?] in the handball world championships.

Jason: [inaudible]. Ger-Germans like-, she's from Germany and they like handball there. Nobody in Britain watches it. I think if you talk to-, handball about-, with, uh, somebody British, they'll think it's a football or soccer game where somebody should be given a penalty because they've handled the ball in the area.

John: I couldn't tell, though, if they were playing-, I, I-, it seems like they, they, they must have been playing in the event, but I didn't actually see them playing in the event.

Jason: They, they would have, they would have been playing in the event. Yeah. Um, Justin plays with a local sponsor from Manchester and she usually brings along a friend from Germany to make up the team.

John: We did not--

Jason: Good event. Good event, though, Iceland. I do enjoy that.

John: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. It's, uh, it's kind of wild to be in that part of the world in, you know, in the winter.

Jason: Yes. Yes. It's also famous for rather wild last nights after the Bridge is finished. But I, I first went there in '93 and it was mad, absolutely mad. I felt as rough as somebody having sandpaper rubbed on their forehead the next morning. And I remember once going with my good friend in an international Chinese plane, Mr. Fuzhong, to Iceland. And that afternoon it was sunny, cold, clear freezing. Overnight it snowed. And then this wind picked up and he was struggling to avoid vomiting on the plane. And as we were on the tarmac, it was swinging around like, like this. And so it is, it is-, well, you don't go there for the weather in winter, do you?

John: Um, Fu hasn't been coming to the Nationals that much either recently, actually.

Jason: No, I believe he went to Las Vegas.

John: Yeah, he was there.

Jason: And actually, my Chinese friends, himself and Mr. Jerry Lee, another good friend, they, they won the two events at the end, the Swiss and the Ryzegard [inaudible].

John: Oh, wow.

Jason: So a very successful tournament. I see them a lot in China and their domestic scene is actually quite big. And I do get hired to go over there twice a year, three, if we actually come in the top four, which is very, very difficult. Because you can see how good they are now in China. And I, I guess that's part of the reason. And the other thing is, a lot of the Chinese players, Fu is a big exception, they don't speak English much at all. So that's why the-the-their own domestic scene is the biggest thing for them.

John: But I-, but the [inaudible] my team in Iceland and I think they were saying that their Chinese, uh, tournament got cancelled. It's supposed to happen next month.

Jason: Ooh, I hope not. Maybe, maybe the sponsor canceled that.

John: Maybe.

Jason: Uh, I'm heading off there in two weeks’ time because I want to acclimatize and do a bit of food and travel filming beforehand. And nobody's told me of any cancellation. And I'm going food and travel vlogging afterwards, so I'll have to go anyway, since I've got flight confirmation sheets as long as my arm now.

John: What-? You know, I hate-, the thing about-, the thing I hate about China, speaking of food, is that, uh, that they have the-, um, like they-, the fish, they serve fish there and it has-, they don't debone the fish.

Jason: No. There's a lot-, and they are bonier fish. They have some types of carps, which are nearly boneless, but apart from that, you spend half the meal spitting bones out, which I've got used to.

John: And so that's not, that's not a deal killer.

Jason: No, no, no. I would say, I would say going for shellfish is a better bet. But then again, some of their shellfish, some places it's cheap. Sometimes it's ridiculously expensive. I can give you a great example just for a normal fish grouper, which is actually a very good fish without any-, many bones. If you go for that in Canton or Hong Kong, it costs an arm and a leg. You get exactly the same fish in Thailand, and it costs nothing. So there we are. So it is a bit of a minefield, Chinese food. And I don't like the pollution either, but, thankfully, we've recently been playing in places where they don't have too much of it.

Because Beijing, and even Shanghai now, I mean, when you come in on the plane, it's not as bad as it used to be, but you're still descet-, descending through this yellow soup as you come down. And, uh, the other thing is, of course, I might be on my own here, the beds are very, very hard unless you can find a Western chain. I mean, I've been to some places where I'd rather just nug [?] a slab of granite in my room and sleep on that instead. Then that-, that's not good if you're playing Bridge if you can't sl-, that's one of the most important things in the long [inaudible] Bridge event, is sleeping well. If you don't sleep well, you're going to make more mistakes for sure.

John: Are you a peking duck guy?

Jason: Yeah, I like, uh, I like it a lot. And, obviously, being a wine lover amongst other things, it's one of the few Chinese food stuffs that actually goes well with wine. I prefer the s-spicy stuff from Hunan and Sichuan and quite happy just to have water or beer or tea with those. But, but I like Beijing duck, yeah. And it's-, I don't know if you have this in the States, they have this cheap [?], um, shall we say pale imitation called crispy duck, where they just lob a duck into a deep fat fryer after it's been seasoned a bit. They give you the same pancakes and cucumber and sauce as you get for Beijing duck. And, well, everybody seems to be as happy as Larry with it. That, that it's-, once you've had the real thing, it's, it's, uh, it's not the same thing.

John: Um, what about pizza?

Jason: I, I like pizza. I don't have it very often. But, unfortunately, and many of your viewers might not like this, I'm not a fan of the American deep pan style. I like the Italian thin, crispy base and I really don't like a lot of toppings on, on it either. In fact, when I go to one of the few good places here in Britain, and there aren't many, or to Italy itself, just tomato sauce and the torn buffalo mozzarella, that will do me [inaudible].

John: Mm-hmm. Oh, I know what I want to ask you about. In your, in, in your YouTube videos you talk about that you did a 12-week liquid diet.

Jason: Yes, yeah. I occasionally do that just to regulate blood sugar because it like creeps-, once it creeps up aga-, above pre-diabetic, it's something that you have to do. Now, I'm going to do that again after I finish my Asia tour because it's crept up again and my weight's crept up. So a little bit of counterbalance is necessary, especially, since, in early June, I've got a six-week tour of North America coming up, revolving around this Club World Cup. And my followers, uh-, well, when I announced it, particularly people from New York were just salivating over the prospects.[laugh]. So, I hope I'm not going to cause any problems with pubs overflowing or anything like that. Maybe I can hire [inaudible] or something like that.

John: Would it-, wh-, like, when you travel now, like, I don't know, wha-, like-, maybe, like, on your most recent trip, like, how many of your, uh, mu-muttonistas are you, are you meeting up with?

Jason: Depends where I am. If I'm in Ireland, um, it's nonstop the number of people. And sometimes they announce where I'm going, sometimes they don't. But in the smaller places, word gets around. And it's like the search parties honing in on which pub I'm reviewing. Stuff like, uh, railway stations in Britain, an awful lot. Sometimes at airports, particularly. It's mainly people from the English-speaking, uh, the English-speaking world but it happens a bit in other places. Particularly if I'm away for the football, some Italians in Turin, quite a lot of people in Madrid.

And there was even a guy in Paris who said that, "Are you Monsieur Mutton?" And I said, "Yes, sir." And, uh, had a selfie with him. So, so-, I mean, there's some places where if I walked around, uh, the streets of, say-, trying to think of a good example. If I walked around the streets of Milan, or something like that, on a non-football match day, nobody would know me from Adam. If I were traveling around on public transport in Dublin, it's likely I'd miss my stop at some stage because of people wanting selfies.

John: Uh, what kind of sy-, wha-what system do you, do you and your brother play?

Jason: For years and years, we played the hyper-aggressive, four-card major system, which was a lot of fun to play. It meant a lot of inaccuracy at high levels, a lot of low level 4-3 fits, which are always a bit interesting to play. But also the opponents, because they're being pushed a level higher, having a lot of problems as well. And eventually, people caught on, uh, about how best to play against it and were dealing with those problems better. So we just stepped to-, moved over to 2 over 1 with better minor.

But given we were having a lot of problems with either hands that, where you'd open 1 of a suit with a 6 card suit and you were too strong to rebid 3 of the suits, like something that's not far off a 2 club opener, we adopted Gazilli over the majors and we play a Mexican 2 diamond, the 18-19 balance, uh, basically to get those hands out of the way. It's not very good when you open 2 diamonds, so it has its random successes. But what it is really good at is dealing with all these hands like 6 minor, 3 major strong hands with 6 as a minor invites or light invites or light invites with both miners. And it's not too memory intensive. It's a little bit memory intensive, but I, I find it works, works really well.

John: Yeah. I, I, uh, played, I played paddle with Cedric Lorenzini in the Toronto NABC last summer and I never understood why people opened 2 diamonds, uh, 18-19. I thought that was a silly bid, but then he explained that, because now you know when partner doubles, they've got shape instead of 18-19 battles [?]. And, uh...

Jason: Exactly. It's, it's, it's, it is great when partner knows you don't have it and you've opened [inaudible] particularly 1 of the minors. And-, I mean, you must have seen people having to open 2-0 or remit 2-0 with 6-3-3-2 hands and stuff like that, or open a club and reverse into a three-card suit, or, or over a minor, a major, bidding 3 clubs with like a 5-4, 18 count or opening 2-0 with 5-4-2-2. It-it-it-'s all an absolute mess and it ge-, it solves a lot of it.

John: So with 5 [crosstalk] you, you open the, the-, at the 1 level?

Jason: Well, pote-, yeah, yeah. Use Gazilli or if it's 5 diamonds, 4 clubs, then play a diamond, a major 2 clubs is forcing. I play a bit with Diego Brenner from Spain and when I do it's like 3 solid days of learning very complicated Italian sequences, which are good, but are extremely memory intensive. Or with Justin, I just play 2 clubs as forcing and it does mean that sometimes you have to-, if nobody bids, we, we have played the, the odd 2 diamonds in a 5-1 fit because a partner's like 4, 5, 1, 3 and it goes a diamond, a heart, 2 clubs. He has to be 2 diamonds. If you can't move over that and nobody's come in with spades, then okay, you're, you're going to play. And that's not the worst thing in the world a 5-1 diamond was opposed to a 4-3 club. Obviously, at pairs it is. But, um, i-i-i-it works quite-, it's quite simple and it works pretty well.

John: What's your relationship like with your brother? Like you're Bridge partners?

Jason: Yeah. We're not, not especially close. We are twins and there are f-f-fraternal twins and identical. We're not identical and we kind of go our own ways. Some of it conscious, on my part, when I was younger. Because I hated being clothed in the same clothing and always being introduced as the twins and I'd rather not be half a person if you can see what I mean. So I-I've developed my own very distinct lifestyle.

John: Did you go to the same schools?

Jason: Yes, different classes then.

John: So through, like, high school or university?

Jason: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, not university. I didn't last very long in university. He has a degree. Uh, I don't know why academia put me off. Maybe I just chose the wrong things to study. But, I mean, if I could wind the clock back, if such a course exists, I'd love to do photography and Spanish. Having been somebody who was, I don't know whether you'd call it lazy, who didn't apply himself, didn't like it. I, I, I write left-handed like this, so I could never even finish an exam because, in those days, you had to handwrite everything.

So having not been a great success academically, I got good enough grades to get to university, but in later life, I spent a ton of my own money and time learning Spanish both in Britain and Spain and obviously, um, applying myself well and enjoying it. Also learning-, obviously, I don't know that much, but learning stuff about photography and filming again. Love reading as much as I can and trying to improve myself all the time. And it's in more contrast to how I was when I was a teenager. I, I guess maybe you just don't know what you want to do at that age.

John: What, what platform do you use to edit your videos?

Jason: Very simple. I just use iMovie on the MacBook Pro. I know a lot of people talk about all these fancy programs like Final Cut or something from Adobe. There are quite, quite a few of them on the market. But I'm struggling to think what they could do for what are supposed to be raw, homemade videos that I can't do on, um, on iMovie. Obviously, having used iMovie a lot, I guess I could probably learn how to use, particularly, fine or cut in not too much time. But some experienced vloggers out there with, you know, hundreds of thousands of followers and even into seven figures said they bought it and it just was completely unnecessary.

John: Is, is your amount of followers on YouTube-, is it monetizable on YouTube?

Jason: It, it is. But it's nowhere near Instagram. Instagram's like 144,000 and very close to 20,000 on YouTube. I wish I could flip them because that would be more financially rewarding, but it is what it is. And it is going up all the time. And as-, I think it's mainly to do with people just not being aware of the channel. Of it not popping up in their suggestions. Because, usually, when it does, they write in the comments, "Oh, I never knew about it. I like this vlog. I'm going to subscribe to you," and everything. Although subscriptions aren't everything, watching more of the video is more important.

John: Have you been on any other podcasts?

Jason: Quite a few, yes. There's a very good, good one in England, um, uh, run by a TV, uh, personality. I've forgotten the name of the podcast. But it's about where you design your ideal pub, the beers you'd have in the, um, the-, what you'd have on the jukebox and who your, who your celebrity guests would be. I think we chose two guests. I can't remember whether there were two people you had to bar as well from your pub. It's, it's a very, very good pod. And I went down to a studio in London and, and as soon as I mentioned the [inaudible], a little bell rang and they appeared all of a sudden.

Been on a couple of Irish pods as well and a couple of local Manchester based ones. I try to appear in all of them that I can, but from somebody who, well, 3 years ago had loads of time on his hands, now it's, it's like, um, every day is rammed with something. Whether it's editing or, uh, going somewhere to taste beer or food or whether it's a football match, it's, it's, it's, it's nonstop. And to the point where, on some of the railway services I use in Britain, I've ended up posing for selfies with the conductors because there's a CB cell office and, "Oh, yeah, yeah. I've seen you on, on Instagram and YouTube."

John: So they call you Mutton, generally?

Jason: Uh, yes. Sometimes Prime and sometimes they ask what my real name is, so I tell them. And, uh, and I know one of them particularly well because I travel a lot between Bristol and Manchester, and he works on the trains, at least in the portion between Bristol and Birmingham. And he often doesn't attend to his other duties because he's asking where I've been and where's new and everything like that. And then suddenly, the train's about to pull in somewhere and he has to dash off and start checking people's tickets and things.

John: I, I asked Zia about you and he told me, uh, that his, his non-pr-playing son, Bridge son, wanted him, wanted him to introduce you to him.

Jason: Okay, I'd be delighted. I, I know of him and who he is, but I ca-, I think I've seen him at one tournament but never played a board against him.

John: Well, no. He-, I think this must be Raffi, because-, or Ruffey, because I think Zane actually plays Bridges. He's, he's straight up at some of the nationals in the, in the [crosstalk].

Jason: Oh, okay. Okay. But the other one doesn't play Bridge?

John: But he wants to be introduced.

Jason: Oh, okay, yeah. I'd be de-delighted. Always happy to meet people and pose for selfies.

[laugh]

John: What does your good lady think about your, uh, your celebrity?

Jason: She likes it. And she's always excited to see people coming up to me on the street. And we, we went to a nearby pub the other day and, and I said hello to a couple of people I know through my fame. And she was asked what's it like to be with somebody who's famous all the time? And he said, well-, she said, "Well, I never get a minute's rest either because of--" If she wants to come along to some of these things, it's a hell of a lot of trouble as well.

John: Is she a Bridge player?

Jason: Yes. Uh, an enthusiastic student of the game, I'd say.

John: One of the things that I loved about researching you is, uh, that you talked about, uh, how much you love playing Bridge.

Jason: Yeah. And I-, when I was in my teens, I just got every Bridge book I could and couldn't stop reading them. And every time I played, I couldn't wait for the next session to start. And sometimes I mean-, when was in my teens, I really couldn't play it that well at all. And you get your usual kicking and 45% in a national event, but you're still up for it again the next day. But then there did actually come a point where I was playing too much and it, it did alter my love of the game. And now that I'm doing a lot of other stuff all the time, I'm really loving it again. And in fact, it's a great break from what I'm doing. You know, you can sit there, just put everything aside and just focus on the 13 cards in front of you and do your best.

But I still love my pairs as well. I wish there were more serious events because they're always just 1 or 2 days, unfortunately. I mean, even the longest ones in the US now are only 3 days. So it's a pity there aren't more or less-, and, of course, I love individual events, which is why I run one myself. It's, uh, it's great fun. It's-, the way I describe it, it's like playing in a top teams event with a partner with loads of agreements is like driving a Ferrari or something. Whereas playing in an individual is like having to drive a Skoda or a Lada or some old rust bucket and you try and get it to its destination. And I actually like that side of the game a lot.

John: I've never actually played in an individual.

Jason: Yeah, you can get sliced up. I got sliced up a lot, uh, in my own event last year, but I'm not trying to win it so I don't mind. Sometimes the wind blows your way and the skill is to play well when the wind is blowing your way. And I play some Rubber Bridge as well, not the very high stakes. Has, you know, bad day you can lose 2 or 300 pounds or win it. So, so it's a little bit-, you, you don't want to just play casually and not concentrate on what you're doing. A lot of it's the banter and the individual nature of it. I'm not saying it can ever be the most serious Bridge, but it's a forward Bridge that I recommend people try. It's a bit different [?].

John: Where do you play, where do you play your Rubber?

Jason: In Manchester. [cough]. You can play it in London as well. And I have done a little bit that the stakes start getting a bit silly there. I mean, I've seen people play for 100, 200 pounds, 100. Th-that's too much for me. That is. And to be honest, if, if you're worried about-, okay, on a one off, it's one thing. But if you play there a few times and you're constantly worried about what you can lose, I don't think you should be playing. It's a dying game, Rubber Bridges. So I think Manchester and London are the only places in Britain. I think you can play in Paris and [inaudible] in France. And I think in New York, am I right, that you can play the Bridge there?

John: Yeah. Yeah. There's an imp game in, uh, Boca, um, that's pretty, pretty, pretty much daily, I think. Uh, I don't know if they have it on the weekends. And-, but the New York game, uh, I played in it, uh, last year, maybe in the fall-, in September, I played the two days or one day. Yeah. I played one day and I think they've had-, they had like a couple of games like a week or two ago, but it's not every day. Yeah. And I think-, I agree with you. Rubber Bridge is-, I love Rubber Bridge. Yeah.

Jason: It's a bit like playing an individual in a different way.

John: Yeah. Yeah. I would imagine. That's [crosstalk].

Jason: I mean, some, some, some-, I mean some of it is, Bridge, you don't get to-, decisions you don't get to experience otherwise, especially when you've got something below the line like a 60-part score or something like, like that. It changes everything. And I don't know what system you're allowed to play in the New York game, but I mean, in Manchester it's very, very restrictive. I mean, basically, you can choose weak or strong or trump [?].

Everybody agrees to play Stamen and that's about it. I mean, there are one or two other things you can play, but they're all stuff from 1960s textbooks, so no reason to play them. For example, if you wanted to play 3 no trumps to take out over a preemptive double as penalty, well, you're allowed to do that. Not sure why you'd want to do that. But I, I, I, I do remember when I started playing that some people thought that was the best thing since sliced bread. Because they catch some lunatics opening 3 clubs on jacks 6 and a Queen 1 unfavorable. Oh, look, I've got 11 [inaudible].Most of the time partner was going to double anyway. [inaudible] so...

John: But they-, I actually-, they don't even allow negative doubles in, in London. Or--

Jason: No, no. We don't, we don't in our Manchester game. No negative doubles, no 2 clubs for the majors over a no-trump point [?] or anything like that. So, it's, it's quite strict and old fashioned. But I tried to write up a sort of more modern method of playing where you could make like a negative double at the 1 level, bid 2 clubs over, no trump for the majors and a few less penalty doubles. Because the rule we have at the moment is that if you've not-, if partners not bid, the double is takeout.

So if it goes something like spade, 2 hearts, 2 spades, pass, pass around the table, that would be take out. But if it goes 1 spade, 2 hearts, 2 spades, double, that would be penalty. And as you can probably imagine, you'll be waiting quite a long time for that one to be of any effect.

John: Oh, man. Um, anything you wanna, anything you wanna steer our listeners to, uh, of-, on your channels? Uh...

Jason: Oh, yeah. Um, well, just before I do that, I'd like to say to anybody watching this that Bridge is by far the best card game. It can be a lot of fun. The only reason sometimes it's not is because people don't make it fun. So I'd encourage everybody to play, play hard, maybe play slightly shorter sessions in club games, have a drink, go through the hands and make it a more sociable game again. I think that's the way forward. And some Bridge clubs here, that are doing stuff like that, are finding a lot of success and new players coming in from what, as you know, is a game suffering from a massively aging population. So, so I would encourage, I would encourage, particularly at lower levels-, I understand the top stuff has to be drawn out long and serious, at lower levels, make the game a bit more fun, make it a bit faster. And so...

And as for my own stuff, I'd encourage people to visit my YouTube channel, Prime Mutton, and my Instagram channel, Prime Mutton 2000 ABFR, and also on my webpage www.primemutton.com, not surprisingly. I have the web shop. But even if you're not interested in the stuff in the shop, I do write a written blog. I'm, I'm months behind on doing my bl-blog because of the pressure of doing a daily Instagram post, every few days a football match and a long YouTube video, but I will catch up on this Asian trip.

John: Well, I am, uh, you know, grateful that, uh, we had this chance to finally meet. And I, and I can't wait to see you, uh, at the next, uh, Bridge tournament. I'm not sure if I'm going to be in-, uh, playing in the Europeans. I imagine you are.

Jason: Not certain, actually, not certain. I mean, this big tour of the US, which is non-Bridge, it is, you know, so big. So many people have asked for it that I have to really prioritize it. But maybe then, uh, our, uh, our paths will cross and maybe we can meet and finally have a pint together.

John: All right. I would like that. I would like to, you know-, I, I learned-, I've learned a fair amount watching your, uh, your channel and your videos in preparation for this. Like, I didn't-, like, I didn't know what a st-, a stout was, for example, um, about the lines of Guinness. Like the fact that Guinness is better in Ireland, that is-, uh, that is, sort of-, I had no idea about that. Um, do you think that's because they brew it in Ireland or?

Jason: It might be because of the, the water being different. I think it's mainly to do-, well, there, there is one important thing that people miss. When pubs in Ireland buy a barrel of Guinness or a keg of Guinness, the shelf life is about 8 days. You've got to knock it out pretty quickly. And they do, and they do. Because it's the centerpiece of every Irish pub, except for in County Court where they might have Beamish or Murphy's. But in terms of abroad, the kegs can be sitting around for months and mo-, they've got shelf lives of months. That does make a difference.

I'm not quite sure about how the pasteurization is affected. But the biggest thing is the person who runs the bar looking after it properly, doing everything correctly, the glass washing, the lines, the, um, valves being tight, stuff like that. Very, very scientific operation. And of course, having people drinking it, so it's just flowing through the lines all the time. Basically, if you go to a pub and see loads of people drinking Guinness, it's likely to be a good pint. If you go in there and there's one guy with his flat cap and his mate having one every three hours, probably a bad pint.

John: How did you, how did you learn th-, learn this stuff?

Jason: A lot of it's through trial and error, going to places having bad points, talking to publicans, in particular, that always helps. And also people in the brewing industry as well. And also locals, like when I go to Ireland, I announce where I'm going, and local people say, "Well, we think this place is good and this place is bad." So I go to some of the good places and the bad, and they're usually right. And they'll usually explain why a pub is good and a pub is bad. For example, I did a trip to Killarney recently, and the one bad pint was at the big pub that's famous near all the big tourist-, nearest to the big tourist hotels. And it, it-, I went in, I didn't-, I couldn't even finish the pint. I suppose, in Britain, I'd say it's a bit below par. But for Ireland, it was an absolute shocker. And you just go down the road, a bit further down the road, a bit away from the main drag, and you're just wading in absolute creamers down there.

[laugh]

John: Oh, man. Well, uh, love it. Love, love getting, love getting a creamer there. As [inaudible]

Jason: Yes. And I will be publishing on my social media once I make a plan where I intend to be in North America at which time. It depends a bit on when City get knocked out. I'll still stay around and go to other places, but the priority is the football. Even though a lot of people have told me about a brewery that produces an independent nitro stout, which I'd encourage people to try the Guinness. It's a great way [inaudible] or even try it-, anyway, a place called Jackson, Wyoming. I looked on the map and I thought this looks a bit obscure to me. This does. But if enough people tell me that it's the best thing since sliced bread then maybe I'll go there.

John: I lived there, uh, two summers after my freshman and sophomore year at university.

Jason: Okay. In-interesting place or quite [crosstalk]?

John: Oh, absolutely. No. It's, it's, it's like at the-, uh, it's at the entryway to Yellowstone. So Grand Teton National Park is right there. And then it's about like an hour south of the entryway to Yellowstone National Park, which is one of our most, uh, you know, famous, uh, national parks. And it was a fun place to live. I'm-, speaking of, so I don't really drink alcohol that much these days, but back in those days I did and I-, and it's probably like, 6,000 feet above sea level. And so, so we got out there. This is, you know, a group of like, like 10 guys that are, uh, that are all just finished their freshman year of college. And, uh, you know, we got drunk quick because the elevation, you know? We were not used to that, uh, to that in [inaudible].

Jason: How high is De-, how high is Denver? Is that the same sort of altitude or [inaudible]?

John: Yes. So Denver is, uh, famously called the mile-high city, because it's 5,280 feet. Which is the, the length of a, of a mile.

Jason: Okay. 'Cause I did play a nationals there and I remember I flew over with British Airways and they brought all the champagne and the fancy stuff and [inaudible], no, no, no, no. I'm going to make sure I'm in top-dip shape for the Bridge and what have you. And arrived in Denver, you know, feeling reasonably good. And then about an hour later, why am I feeling thirsty? I didn't have anything on the plane. And then my friend, Mr. Fu and others invited me out. We went for three or four pints. I felt absolutely walleyed after that. [crosstalk]. I couldn't understand why. And then somebody explained. And apart from the closing night, I didn't touch alcohol again there because I realized how it, uh, hits you.

John: Yeah. Yeah. I actually have a hard time sleeping at Bridge tournaments a lot of the time. I g-, I guess because I'm just so amped up about-, like, I enjoy Bridge so much, I guess [inaudible]. So I take some...

Jason: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know what you mean. I know exactly what you mean. If-, I hate it sometimes here when they have-, trying to cram too much in. So you have the Bridge actually finish close to midnight and then you've got like a 10am start the next day. And I try to say to organizers, "Do you not understand that the adrenaline is flowing so much? It would take at least a couple of hours for that to go down and out of your system." And even with, um, a sleep apnea machine, which helps me sleep better with a little water [soft music] tank with, um, stuff spraying into my mouth, sometimes when it's like that, it's like 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning before I actually manage to get my head down. Especially if it's a really tight competition going into the last day.

John: Yeah. Well, it's been a pleasure, Jason. Thank you so much, uh...

Jason: You're welcome.

John: ...for, uh, for your time. I'm really happy for, uh, your success and, uh, I look forward to, to more of it.

Jason: Thank you. Yes. Pleasure to appear on your podcast.

[soft music]

[END]