Ep. 84 Boye Brogeland: Bridge at the Edge and In Person

Today, we have a truly special guest—someone who has made an indelible mark on the world of bridge, not just for his exceptional play but for his unwavering commitment to integrity in the game. Boye Brogeland is a world-class player, a champion at the highest levels, and a fearless advocate for ethical bridge. From winning prestigious titles to leading the charge against cheating scandals, Boye has demonstrated time and again that fair play matters just as much as skill.

He is a World Grand Master, Bermuda Bowl champion, three European Open Team Championships, as well as several other European and North American championships, including both the Spingold and Vanderbilt.

We discuss how he got into bridge, some of his most memorable competitions, and his role in helping clean up the game.

To subscribe to The Setting Trick email list click here.

Episode Highlights:

2:12 – Boye’s first event on the Open team

8:46 – Boye’s grandparents taught him bridge

11:04 – Writing bridge books, which Boye says is the most work he’s ever done for the least pay

12:07 – The most memorable hand of Boye’s career

17:54 – The unique method that Boye used to memorize suit combinations

21:32 – A famous psych which helped win the 2022 Vanderbilt

32:55 – Boye didn’t like the sheriff label he was given during the Fisher and Schwartz cheating scandal. You can read more about the scandal here.

42:53 – The backlash Boye faced during the scandal, and how he got away from it

46:15 – “They stole our name!”

In preparation for this conversation, Boye asked me to get on the World Bridge Tour App. I played a couple virtual tournaments on the app and I highly recommend it. You get to play against Simon Holt, Sartaj Hans, and many more players, and compare your results.

Check out the app here: https://www.wbtbridge.com/

*First paragraph written by ChatGPT

John McAllister: Hi. This is John McAllister, and I'm coming to you from Iceland where I'm playing in the World Bridge Tour, Reykjavik Masters tournaments. This is my first time playing in the Reykjavik Masters, and I'm very excited to share with you my in-person interview with Boye Brogeland, who is one of the founders of the World Bridge Tour on his 52nd birthday. Unfortunately, my video for the episode was corrupted, and so we only have Boye's video. So, if you're watching on video, you're just going to get Boye.

This was a great conversation, so it's a huge bummer that we don't have the interaction between the two of us on video. But I'm still really excited for this conversation, and I have to say playing in the World Bridge Tour, I've really enjoyed the event so far. We're starting the third day today. Boye is a consummate champion. He's won three European Open Championships. He won the Bermuda Bowl in 2007. And this is why I do the podcast to have conversations like this. And I'm friends with his wife. So, without further ado, here's my conversation with World Grand Master, Boye Brogeland.

Boye Brogeland: I've looked forward to this for many years.

John: Well, it's a thrill. Yeah, I was looking up your resume earlier and the word that I wrote down is overwhelming.

Boye: I've been around for a while, you know. It takes time to build up a good result list in Bridge. It takes time. So, I've been around. I think the first time I played was the first major event I remember was in Rhodes in 1996. That was we did very badly, but that was my first main event with the Norwegian team.

John: On the open team?

Boye: On the open team, yeah. So, I was very nice because I was, at that time, in the military. So, I got leave. So rather than being out there shooting in the woods, I could go to Rhodes and have fun. So, it was nice.

John: Well, we first met, thanks to Zia. My mom, God bless her, got me set up to play a tournament with Zia. And this was in 2013, we think. And Zia sent me an email, "Would you like to play another event with Boye Brogeland while you're in Biarritz?" And that was an easy yes. It was fun.

Boye: I really enjoyed this time we had together there. I thought it was so nice. I went to Biarritz many, many times during the summer. Yeah, was such nice just to hang out there and then just, yeah, the combination of bridge and just, yeah, hanging out, enjoying life, and being with good friends and people. It's, yeah, I really like that time we had there. We also had a local coming from where I live in Flekkefjord, [inaudible], that came and played with Zia.

And for him, it was a blast. It was his 50th, like, it was a 50th gift from his wife that he got to play with Zia there. So that was it was so nice, I remember.

John: And your family was there, your wife, Tonje, and your son, Anders. Your daughter wasn't born yet. One of the things that struck me about that tournament, which I just loved it, so it was just one session a day in the afternoon and we went out to dinner every night after the game and we would literally go through every board. Every card [inaudible].

Boye: If you find people that really sort of like Bridge is their passion, is not only the playing of the game, but just to go through the hands. And you think, "How can I get better? What happened?" The fun part of it and all these things. So this is something I actually got with me already from playing in the Norwegian team. We had the same, especially, with Helness, Tor Helness. He was that sort of personality. He liked to go through, like I said, every card, "Did you play high or low there? How did you encourage this card? What count did you give?"

John: Wow.

Boye: So we went through every, every hand when we went to all of these major events. And I think that was a big, big learning point for me to go through all the hands and to really, yeah. So you just don't practice when you play because playing bridge is also very good practice but we did every meal was like a great practice. And, actually, I was also very lucky when I played, when I started playing in the US. I played in Rita Shugart's team. We were 4-handed, so we played all the boards. And then we had Marshall Lewis that took, because at that time we did not have hand records for many matches. So he took notes, every hand that was played, he wrote down and he then photocopied us.

So we went to dinner, Rita bought like a couple of bottles of red wine, and this is when we had a late start. So we started at one o'clock to play then we went out to have dinner. Everybody got their set of photocopies of the hands, so we drank 2 bottles of red wine and then I just drank coke then. But the other guys, so there were more wine for them and we went through all the hands. And then we played the evening session and he took the same, all hands he wrote down and also had comments that, "Oh, you should have done this, why did you do that, done that?" The Marshall did, and he brought back to Rita's suite, he brought back the photocopied records of the hands. So we then looked through all the hands and probably went to bed like 2:00, 3:00 in the morning, and then up to play and won the next day. For me, fantastic experience. I loved it. I loved every bit of it.

John: What was it like then? You said, you mentioned Rhodes in 1996, how did you find out that you were going to be on the Norwegian team?

Boye: It was a little bit lucky because we had, there were 2 pairs that was for sure to play. I think it was like Helgemo and Helness and Grøtheim and Aa. And they were for sure to play and there was like one spot left. So we played almost like what we call the American challenge, like the better pair in the Nordic Championship would then got the chance to play in the Olympiad, the British Olympiad. And we did a little bit better than the people we played with, so they chose us for go to Rhodes.

John: You played in the Nordic?

Boye: Yeah, the Nordic Championship in the summer of '96, that was the first time. We knew that unless we did better than the pair that we teamed up with, we wouldn't go to Rhodes. So, we had a very good tournament and then they chose us. So from there on out, I've been playing for Norway since '96. I've played every freaking tournament Norway played for.

John: Every one?

Boye: More like there was a little bit of period that actually there was a couple of tournaments I had said no to. Just actually around the cheating scandal, I was a little bit I lost like a little bit of my passion for the game for just like for a short while and I said like no to 1 or 2 tournaments. But except that, I've played everything. And also when Helgemo and Helness, when they went to Monaco, quite a lot of Norwegian players said, "No, maybe not so interested in playing for Norway because we won't have a chance." But I've played, I want to play, I just hope that we could get lucky in some of these events maybe, yeah. So, because we have a lot of good players in Norway but of course when Helgemo and Helness left to play for Monaco, we did not have the same team anymore.

John: Were you with your wife in '96 when we were in Thailand together at that point?

Boye: That was actually when we met. She was actually dating my junior partner for a while, yeah. So it took some time before we got together, but 1996 was when we started hooking up. So that was nice. I think it was actually right after, I think I met her. I was coming there with my suitcase because I was moving to Bergen because I was going to do my military service in Bergen, where I also studied for the previous 4 years. So I just came with my suitcase there and I think we met up. We were going out somewhere and we met up and she came with me back home with my suitcase. Yeah. So that was the first time we actually met, I was brought up in '96, the autumn of '96.

John: I asked because I was wondering who the first person you told when you found out you made the Open team?

Boye: I don't know if I told, like, I haven't told someone. Because I'm not really from a bridge family. Who taught me bridge was my grandmother and grandfather. So what I remember the most about telling something to someone was when I started, when I was around 20 years old and I went to play a tournament in Norway in Oslo. And we beat Helgemo and Helness. They had a huge score but they just couldn't beat us. And then I remember I went down to the phone booth, I was almost crying if I remember correctly and I phoned my grandmother and said, like, "Now we just won this tournament." Because she told me that, "Boye," she said, "you have to focus on your studies because you can never make a living from bridge."

So that was that she was very afraid that I would spend too much time with bridge rather than doing my studies. I went to some economic studies and, like, I went to a very good school in Norway, in Bergen. But I studied, I did spend more time studying bridge than I studied the books.

John: There was a little twinkle in your eye when you said that about your grandmother.

Boye: Yeah, that was fantastic. It's like she taught me. I went, we play only, like, 3-handed bridge because it was her and my grandfather and me a lot of the time. But I went to them as much as I could during the weekends. They love playing different games but when they taught me bridge, I was hooked. So I tried to go to them as much as I could during the weekends to play the game, and that's how it started. And I also played at the local club with my grandfather for a start and I played with all the family members. Yeah, so that's how it all got going.

John: Was it on your mom or dad's side?

Boye: This was on my mom's side. But I still have uncles now in the club, now when we won the Europeans this summer, I'm not sure what's the name in English really, but the guy, like, the head of the town that we live in, he came there to congratulate me on winning the Europeans. And both of my uncles, like, both 80 years old, they were there to congratulate. They still play in the local club, so I say there's not a bridge family, we still have some sort of bridge genes in the family.

John: Did you write your book? This is totally jumping around, but did you write your book, did you write it in Norwegian or did you write it in English?

Boye: We wrote it in English. I did it together with David Bird, and I've never done so much work for so little. It's I like to write bridge books, it's great. Like, you only do because you have something to say and I wanted some of these hands to try to come out because [inaudible]. I'm not good at that anymore, but I was good at collecting hands when I was younger, so I thought, "Okay, these were good." And also I had David Bird with me writing the book. He looked into different hands I played and also other writers in Norway that collected hands, so could bring up. So I got a lot of my top 50, top 100 hands in that book.

John: So, did you approach David or like?

Boye: I think it was maybe Ray Lee and Master Point Press that got to me and said, "Oh, maybe that's it." But, yeah, I can't do that myself, just too much work. So, it was too much work, as it was even with David. Like he's a fabulous guy to have on board, he's really, really good and it was very nice writing book together with him. But it's just so much work to do these and to get it in a way that you really feel good about the book.

John: I can remember 2 hands, not specifically, but there's one hand where you had like Queen and one Heart in your hand and Dummy was like Ace, Jack or, yeah, Ace, Jack, 5th or something, Ace, Jack, 10, 5tj. And they led a Heart and you wrote Ace and now because you were sure that the King was out.

Boye: Yeah, I think it was very similar to what you say there, John. Because that's when people ask me what favorite hand? Like, because I've won many prizes also, I've been lucky and I'm not sure it's because people know me too well. I have too many good connections there, that I get all these prizes for the Best Played Hand of the Year and those kind of things. But if you ask me what one hand, it's that hand I remember the best in my whole career. Because there was about two, like, top 10 players in Norway, top 10 Norwegian players and I said, My Dummy was Ace, Queen, Jack, 10, 5th. opposite two small, so it was the same, so yeah. So it was just something with the whole thing.

I just felt that the King was on side because he led something and he started thinking, thinking, thinking, how should he go about to defend his hand? And then he came out with a Heart. And then I was sure he wouldn't think like this, if he just looked at the King in the pocket. And these are like top Norwegian players, I went up with the Ace and ran the Queen and he had just King third, so it was no point for him not to cover. That's just how much the game is psychological and I just went, and I see him like up with the Ace run the Queen, just follow suit, that holds the trick and Diamonds were two-two, it was like way too, like, the slam was just like, it was, I don't know, was it like maybe a 20% slam or something.

So the Diamonds had to come in after that. I had King Jack third opposite Ace sixth, but that came in too. But that was great. Like those hands are just because the psychology of the game to me is such a big, that's really it's nice to like do a double squeeze or whatever, you have full control. But for me, the psychology of the game against the top players in the world, for me, that's the best thing. So that, I will never forget that. I will forget all the other hands, but that hand I will never forget.

John: What were you playing with? Was it with screens or what?

Boye: No, no, no, this was just in a local, in Bergen, but like the top level in Bergen. But these were top, like, they both played for Norway, these guys. So you can say, "Oh, well, why didn't he give Cam?" Yeah, he gave Cam. It doesn't matter, the psychology of the game was too strong. It doesn't matter.

John: The other one was there was some hand where Tor Helness had like a 20 count, and they like did a slam in his face, and he didn't double. And I just remember being like, "How is this possible?" This was probably, I think I got that book before I met you, and I remember reading, like, "How can you have a 20 count?" And like they did a slam and you're not doubling. I mean, it was just [crosstalk].

Boye: [inaudible] yeah, anything can happen. But I remember what we think, but like, one of this, I'm not sure, I think this might be the book. But this was one I had with Espen Lindqvist, my former partner, now I play with Christian Bakke, my former partner, and we were passing, like, 3 or 4 rounds we were passing, and then suddenly we had to the bidding, and we bid off to a slam. So this is like fantastic. You can't even believe it, you just bam, bam, bam, bam, and you say nothing. And then you [inaudible]. It's incredible. I hope that hand is also in there. I can remember, that was a fantastic hand, and I also remember when you think about, like, fun hands, yeah, that you hardly ever see.

John: Is Zia, I mean, is he a mentor? How do you think of Zia?

Boye: When I started Bridge, when I went to bed, I read suit combinations, so I had the encyclopedia of Bridges, like, 2 kilos in that book, and I read every freaking suit combination that was in that book. And I learned them by Heart, so I was better than, I forget, 16, I was probably better at suit combinations than I'm now. But that was just I learned that by Heart, and I also I read one of the first things that I read in Bridge was Zia's article saying, "Roll Over Houdini," I think it's called, Roll Over Houdini. And it's about what he says, that if they don't cover, they don't have it. And it's the same thing, it's the psychology of the game, because you can say, "Oh, they should cover, they should not cover, whatever."

But they just, in practice, when they have an honor, and you play an honor, they cover, most people. So when I read that, that's sort of wow, he saw I could see he sees something in the game that I've never seen, and that I might not have ever seen. So, he became like a hero for me when I was young, and then I was so lucky that I got to meet him, I got to know him, and we became friends, I played with him. I played with him here in Iceland in 2003. So we won the Pairs here in 2003 together, and he did so many. He just plays his own style, it's okay, but I love it. Some people might find it difficult, but just he's an artist at the table.

No, and we've become very friendly over the years, and my son has become friendly with his sons, and we seem to be rich together and all these things. Yeah, I guess he's become maybe more and more of a mentor. I picked up a lot of stuff from him, like he was bidding wise and stuff. And also from him I picked up a lot, but I try to pick up a lot of stuff from players all over the world that I respect, so I put it into my system. Because you can always learn stuff, the day you think you're sort of, "I know this game," that's the day when people pass you and get better than you.

John: I forgot what I was going to say. I was going to ask you something. Oh, suit combinations. So when you were doing that, well, how would you approach it?

Boye: No, I just read it, and I learned, and I try again like next evening, if I just didn't know. If I failed on one, I said, "Okay, maybe I wrote something with it." I said, "Okay, I knew this, I knew that. I know this, I know that. That one I'm not sure of." So, that I'll have to do again. So it was just like learning stuff by Heart, and if you do that, it's also easier when you get something new to try because you're into the right mind frame to remember these things. Yeah, so some of these I remember, for example, if you have Queen 10, 4th, opposite Ace 5th, so the right way to play the Ace. But in Queen 10, I'm 4th opposite Ace 5th.

But that's in theory. In practice, if you can play a low one, and they will, well, from King double, they very often will pop what they would think. So if you can get that read of it, it's much better to start with a low one, so you get more combinations in, for example. So these things, I just picked up by reading some of it, it already said in that encyclopedia, and some of it I just knew by, I realized by reading it.

John: So, that particular thing that you just explained is in there [crosstalk]?

Boye: Yeah, if people play perfectly, there's nothing to be gained by just playing down the Ace like most people do. But if they flicker from King double, for example, or something, then if you can read, if you can get a read of the King double, that's enough to tilt the odds that the right way to have the suit is to play a low one.

John: And that's in the encyclopedia?

Boye: Yeah, you might find it difficult to see, because there's a lot of pages there. Loads of combinations.

John: No, I own it, but I know where it is. I know where it is on my bookshelf.

Boye: Yeah.

John: So when you were first reading it, would you test yourself against the combination?

Boye: Yeah, just because they say what's correct, so I just look at a combination. It's like doing a glossary test. Like just I check this, how would I play? Uh-huh, I would play it like that. That check, "Oh, yeah, I was right." And if I was right, okay, I'll do tomorrow. I'll have it. So, that's how I went about with those things, and that was just interesting. Some people might think this is boring, not at all boring. But for me, which is, even that, just like it's a problem solving, I think, in bridge, that really, yeah, that's one part that I really, really like. Just to try and solve the problem, and maybe solve it better than anybody else.

John: Do you read The Bridge World, or?

Boye: No, I do my own bridge, but I've done my own bridge magazine for 25 years. So I have to say, I read very little bridge. When I read bridge the most was when I was younger, when I grew up. When I read these, like, encyclopedias, suit combinations, I read some bridge magazines. But I read very few bridge books. The one book I like, it's like there's also, is it called Probabilities or something. Now I just I forgot, that just it's a Kelsey book. So I've forgotten the name, you might look it up and find out what it is. That I think it's very helpful, like, to play like that. But that's more of a combine your chances, it's okay, there's the chance for break 3-3 is 36%, and the chance for 4-2 break is 48%, so I know.

These also I learned by Heart when I was younger, all the percentages. So if you have to play for the drop, or to play for the finesse, and all these things. So I knew that, I knew better now. It's just, okay, I know it. But if you want to give me the exact numbers now, I would be more shaken out than I was 20-30 years ago.

John: You've been on the Rosenthal team in the States for a while now, and you guys won the Vanderbilt in 2022?

Boye: 2022, yeah, it was right after the pandemic. Not the first time, but the next one, yeah.

John: And there was a hand in around the 32, 4th quarter, that Christian Bakke and your teammate told me about, where you psyched?

Boye: Yeah, that was something.

John: I don't know, [crosstalk].

Boye: Yeah, that was something. No, it was we had so much time. I think the match that we won the most that year was actually the final, with so many tight matches. And yeah, we're actually also against Spector, I think, and there was the semifinal, it was quite a clear victory. But before that, many, many tight matches. So I think this was against, we played against, Compton and Passell. I think we played, I think that was we met in that last quarter. And I thought it felt like it was so close, but I felt we needed a swing. So I picked up something like 2 Hearts, 2 Spades, was it 3 little Diamonds and Queen 6 of Clubs. Maybe. No, it was the other way, it was Queen 6 of Diamonds and 3 little Clubs.

First hand, yeah, it could be a bit, and white on red, you could be a bit frisky and open 3 Clubs. Even frisky open 4 Clubs, right, and what the heck, I opened up with trump, 15-17. So it's like that's a little bit for me in the pub, because I hadn't checked if some people don't use a double against one of trump bans. I hadn't checked with them, so I think they didn't use that, so they had double as showing something else. So I then opened a no trump, and it went double, so it's showing something. And upon that, bid 2 Hearts transfer. Okay. And I think it went double on the left, saying something. So what to do now? And I didn't want to take the transfer, because I had only 2, because taking the transfer would be 3. Okay, what the heck? Okay, I pass. It went pass, and my partner, he passes. [inaudible] he must think that I have length in the Heart. I don't have 3 Spades.

John: Oh my God.

Boye: He must think I have length in the Heart. Oh fuck, how can I be so stupid, and why didn't I just open 3 Clubs like a normal guy. So it turns out my partner is 5-5 in the majors, and he has something like 13 or 14 or 15 points, so he realizes that I've psyched because of all the action that happens when they are red. So he's like, "Ah, okay, I see. Okay, my partner doesn't have 3 Spades, and he's probably the best shot maybe." But I had only 2 Hearts. So the problem in this, so the bad news in this is that if Diamonds have been breaking 3-1 or 2-2, he would have made 2 Hearts. So that's the bad news. The good news is that the opponents could make 6 Clubs, I think. So 6, yeah, [inaudible].

John: I forgot that wasn't your suit, and I was like, "Wait, wait, wait."

Boye: So he was trying to catch up with me to make 2 Hearts then. Diamonds were breaking 4-0. He had Ace King third, and I had Queen 6, but it broke 4-0. So, he went one down or something, I think it was 1 down, or 2 down. I think just 1 down. But that was a great result for us, we needed that, and also I think we needed a missed defense on the next board. So, the combination of this, like, gaining us imps, and them being shook up because of the whole thing that happened, so they misdefended the next, against the game, that partner should not have made, that he made.

So we got, like, because of this hand, we got, like, 2 swings, not one. So I can't remember if we needed both. I think maybe we needed one and a half of these. So, this is fantastic moments in your career that you think, "Wow, this is it." I still want to talk about it, I get the goosebumps. Like, it just this is dream, like, a dream for me come true. Because most of that, it won't work, but just I was there the day that actually worked. I was there. I tried it, it worked, and it was helpful, very helpful for us to win that Vanderbilt. Andrew's first major win. He's done a lot of good results over the years, but it was this like one of the major events for him to win, that was the first one.

John: Yeah, the Vanderbilt, that was the first big event that I played in.

Boye: Yeah.

John: I think you've only got one. You've only got one Vanderbilt title.

Boye: I haven't really [inaudible]. Because the thing is, maybe that's correct, because I won some events. We tried to get them away, in a way, when we won with Fisher-Schwartz, that we then later understood clearly they had been cheating also when they played with us. So we tried to renounce those titles, but I still see that. I think they still gave the titles to us, and they took away Fisher-Schwarz because we did not deserve those victories. But we were the most successful team. That was a Richard Schwartz team, that I played with before, playing with Rosenthal. Or, actually, I played also on John Diamond's team. That was fantastic.

We won the Spingold, the summer of 2017. We played 4-handed, Brian Platnick and John Diamond, and Espen Lindqvist and myself, and it was a very tight match. Well, actually, it wasn't so tight, we were down a lot, before the last segment. But then we picked up, and we had a good, and I went up, I remember, after the last hand, I said, and then went back to look, it was a BBO, to look on the screen. And we had overcome them, like, the Italians, like, great, great, great with Madala and Sementa and [inaudible]. Yeah, so we beat them on the last 4.

John: Lavazza team?

Boye: Yeah, Lavazza team. So, that 4-handed on the Diamond team, with Daniel Platnick and Espen Lindqvist. So that was also one of my, like, give top 5 victories of all my whole career. That 2017 is very high up there, or the Vanderbilt there, as you mentioned, with the Rosenthal team is high up there. But I think the number one for me was 2008, when we won the Europeans, that I had only played with Espen Lindqvist then for 3 months, and we topped the Butler, and we won. Then Italy had won, like, 6 or 7 European champions in a row. And then the Norway came there, which was friends and family, and just beat the heck out of them. So that was fantastic.

So that's, I think, the number one also. Oh yeah, we won the Bermuda Bowl in 2007, in Shanghai. That was, of course, a big dream come true. So, the main, like, the memory, the best feeling, I think, was then. On the very last match, it was so tight also in 2008. There were many, many teams could win, or quite a few countries could win, going into the last match, and we beat Denmark 24-6. And then it was a grand slam that we were there. We were there almost playing in a 4-3, or a 4-5, instead of a 5-4-5. But then, ah, we fell from grace, and then had a bad result, but then we start doubling them in par scores, and it was amazing. We beat them 24-6. That there was a different scale at that point. You know, now it's just a 20 scale, not a 20 BP scale, but that was, yeah, the 30 BP scale.

John: What did they do at the other table on the grand slam board?

Boye: Oh, I think they stopped in 6, yeah. So, they stopped in 6.

John: Oh, wow, [crosstalk].

Boye: Now that we had full control, like, it could even on a very good day, it could be, because I had an Ace, King, Queen, Jack at my suit, and I could know it was a rough. Even on a 4-2 fit, it would be right, because you needed the extra rough on the short hands. Because of the bidding, you could look that up the very last time in 2008, fantastic. You could look that up, and we were almost there. We would have suggested 7 Clubs, but it was hard. Okay, we were on the way. We had a 9-card Spade fit, so it was always difficult to take these actions that you're sort of, "Okay." But we still won, so it just made it sweeter in a way, that after we could come back that not bidding the grand. We went down in the grand, and we just came back and won it [inaudible], the same [inaudible].

John: John: I was emailing with Brian Platnick in preparation for this interview, and he told me about, he reminded me of, he said that he asked if that was your best cycle ever, the 2017 one? Because I guess you lost in the finals, you won the Spingold, then lost in the finals of the Vanderbilt the next year or something like that?

Boye: Yeah, I didn't kind of remember that.

John: 4th in the [crosstalk].

Boye: What I remember is that we should have won the Rising. I said this, because I got to start. I had my family with me, and my daughter got like a stomach, like she was puking and stuff, and she got it to me. So, Platnick and John Diamond, they just played fantastic anyway, so we should have won it. But I was there in between rounds. I went out behind, I was puking, went back to play, maybe it's not supposed to be allowed, maybe I should have withdrawn. We were only 4 people in the team.

John: Yeah.

Boye: So I just had to play or we had to withdraw. So that one we had a really, really good chance of winning. And the same thing, actually, another time we had a good chance of winning was the first Rising we ever played, back in 2021. No, sorry, 2001. That was the first tournament with the Shugart team.

John: Oh, you won the Rising then?

Boye: No, not that. We won with the Shugart team. Later on in 2014, we won the Rising. But the first tournament I played, I thought it was, I came there, I was new to professional bridge, and we played the Rising, and I heard this was the toughest event. It was so easy. Like, it was incredible. I played with Tony Forrester at this event, and the first 20 boards in the final, we just did not have a losing board. It was just like, "We're winning this." Like, it was clearly we're winning this. But at the other table, where Rita Shugart and Andrew Robson played, they did not have the same feeling. They were just like, "Oh, we had to try something to get some of these bad boards back and stuff."

So, I think we came 4th also that time. It was very, very, very close. So that's also that, "Wow, it's this easy to come over here and play professional, and beat all the sort of the famous names?" That's how it felt like that time. It's become more and more harder and harder to win these events.

John: I think it's, actually, I know it says on the ACBL website, if you look up past winners, it says for the titles that you won with Fisher-Schwartz, that it says forfeited.

Boye: Yeah, okay.

John: Next to your name.

Boye: Because I just see [crosstalk].

John: Because it still lists you as the winner, but it says forfeited.

Boye: Okay, because I can just see from the ACBL bulletin when we play these events, they list us as winners, but they have removed Fisher-Schwartz from these. So, I don't know.

John: Oh, I didn't even notice. I was just looking for your name, so I didn't look to see who the team was. I remember, actually, I spoke to you on the phone. Do you remember? Like we spoke for probably like an hour. I mean, you were a busy man at this time. But when it all happened, I called you up pretty like at like 11:00. Maybe you called me, because it was like ten or eleven o'clock at night in the States. And this was all going on, this cheating scandal. And you were, you know, the sheriff is the nickname that you gave.

Boye: Yeah, I think it was mixed. I didn't like that. Yeah, I guess he called me that. And now, okay, it's all right. But at that time, I just didn't like it. It was like a concern, much like a concerned citizen rather than the sheriff. So I think that someone had to try and do something. And it just fell on me to start it. And there was so much help around the world to try and fix these things, and looking at the videos. So it was incredible how many people came together in the bridge community to help. Even if I was the one that went out against it, it was really a big crowdsourcing thing that everybody came together around because it just ruins the game. Like cheating is just it's the cancer of the game.

John: What was it exactly that happened? I think you played a match against the team and you lost. It was a knockout match.

Boye: Yeah, we had been teammates with Fisher and Schwartz for quite a while. And I had heard rumors. People came to me, "How can you play with these guys? They're cheating." Yeah, okay, it's I really hear you say that. I have not seen many hands when I played against them. Well, it was difficult. When you have people you trust and like, they come to you and say, "These guys are cheating." It's difficult. So I was very happy, and I go, "I did not feel bad at all that they left here." We have been the most successful team. I felt good when they left, they stopped playing on the Cayne team, the summer of 2015.

And the irony is that we met them in the qualifier the same, in that tournament in Chicago in 2015. And it was such a close match and we won the match by 1 in. But then they complained about the board against Allan Graves and Richard Schwartz. And they originally wanted sort of a turnover like a 10 ins. But knowing that we had beat them by only 1 in, they only needed 2 ins to beat us. So then they started saying different things, that they might have doubled or something. So the end of it was that they gained 2 ins, not 10 ins. It's like they won't really, but they gained 2 in on this board to beat us by 1 in. And that was tough.

Because we had played so well that match, and we felt that really they just made up the case. In our view, they did not have any good reasons for sort of, and we had been teammates and for them to first complain. And then the directors said no to the results then. And then for them to appeal. We felt bad about the whole situation. So I couldn't go to sleep. This was in the middle of the night. I think this appeal committee was over around one o'clock or 1.30 in the morning. So it was very late, but I couldn't go to sleep. So I went in and I looked at BBO on the results. What had happened the other day, because we had not played against Richard Schwartz himself.

So I just went in and just had a look. And it was strange that when they had King Jack, 10, 9, 5th of Hearts and Queen, 4 for Clubs. And it was a Diamond, pass, a spade pass, and no trump. Most people here would lead the Heart. With King, Jack, 10, 9, 5th. But they chose to lead the Club. Not that it helped them so much on this particular hand, but it was just weird. And there were some other weird hands too. And what I really picked up on was that one board that I had picked up the trump suit to score 2 overtricks.

Like Lotan Fisher, he had misguessed the trump suit. But it was still scored as 12 tricks. So that should have been 1-in for us. So it should have been a draw. So that was the reason in the morning that I called my teammates. And we did not think that they had cheated us by any means. But on this, yeah, we should have won 1-in for this. And then it should have been a tie. It should have been extra boards. So I called up my team and said, "What happened to this board?"

And they couldn't really explain. They were claiming, it was claiming, and they didn't really understand what had happened. So that's how it sort of got started. So we did not think of this as being cheated at all. We just felt that this was the wrong score. But then people came to me, "Oh, did you see how they cheated you on that board?" They told me, "Like board 11." "No, I did not see that." Because that was a hand I had not picked up.

But I had found a defense order that made sure to beat the contract. But I could not see a lot of issues. He had defended differently to take the contract 2-off. But still that defense risked the clear to make it. So there were just so many small things that just came to me that I thought, "Hmm, there's something to this." And the very last night in Chicago, I went out, and people asked me, "Haven't you seen the video from the year before in the Europeans?"

John: Yeah.

Boye: "No. That's made on YouTube?" "No, not at all. No, you should see that video." And then I went in to see the video, and I could see that Ron Schwartz picked up, like, you have Ace, Queen, 10, 9, 15 Diamonds. I was a King third. And this is you in 6 Diamonds. Yeah, the best play, this is also suit combination, John. The best play here, if you have the communication, is to play a Diamond to the King. Like, the normal thing is just to play that. Play the Ace first from where you have 2 honors, but to play a Diamond to the King is the best suit way to play it because you can pick up 5-0 on your right.

Because you can play the King, back to the Ace. If you don't see the 4-1 break, you can go to dummy and then do the hook. But by playing to the King, you can now pick up Queen, Jack 5th also, which many people don't think about. They just play the Ace, like normal, go to the King, and take the hook. So that's sort of, but in this situation, he played the Ace and ran the 10 of Diamonds. It's like an impossible play for a good player. It's just so anti-odds, unless you've peaked in the opponent's card.

And what had to happen was actually that Fisher had peaked in, or actually not just peaked, he let them show him. Louk Verhees showed his hand, and then Lotan picked up that trumps were breaking badly. And for some reason, his partner playing the hand found out that these were breaking badly. And he then made a contract. So this is where it all started. And I also remember one hand from that tournament, that I had read about. Like it was David Gold had come up with this book, together with, I don't remember his, he started with an A, his last name, about what to lead against no trump contracts.

So I was in lead with 10, 9, I think, 10, 9, 8, 4 for Spades, King, 3rd of Hearts, and 3 small, 3 small, basically. And he goes 2 no trumps on my right, pass, 3 no trumps on my left, pass, pass, pass. So now what would you lead?

John: 10, 9, 4 for Spades.

Boye: 10, 9, 8, 4 for Spades, King, 3rd of Hearts, 3 small, 3 small.

John: I guess I'm supposed to lead a Heart because of the [inaudible].

Boye: Yeah. In this tournament, but based on what I've picked, I hadn't read the book or anything. I just I saw that someone wrote on Bridge Winners or whatever, that this is what Bird and [inaudible], I think, maybe has said. This is what they claim, that you should try and find your opponent's 5-card suit, it's more likely to set it than, yeah. So I led a Heart. And then we came down to Queen, 10, 3rd of Hearts, didn't look that promising. It goes 10, Jack, small. Back to my game. Heart, 5 tricks. Wow, down one. And then if you go in and watch the video, where Lotan Fisher and they, this is against Norway, this was against Israel. So we played against each other.

John: Oh, wow.

Boye: So it goes sort of similar biddings, and he's scratching his head like, "What to lead?" And then in the end, he comes up with a Heart.

John: Which one?

John: A small Heart, just to be clear.

John: No, which one?

Boye: Lotan Fisher.

John: Okay.

Boye: So he bids [inaudible] finds it out, cash out, 5 tricks. Okay, one down. So you go in and you look at all the scores in this European tournament. Everybody leads the 10 of Spades, except me. I was a little bit quicker than Lotan Fisher. He needed to think. So, that's [inaudible], yeah. It's incredible, my new game. So just too many things came together. And I think I realized that these were difficult because these were my friends. And I still don't have any personal things against them still, even if they threatened to sue me, and these kind of things.

But I still don't have any hard feelings against them as persons. But the problem is that for bridge, they would just need someone to really try and fix this. Because it was getting really, really problematic with all the cheating at the top level. So, someone had to do it and my feeling was just that other people would not stand up, and the federations wouldn't stand up for it. So what was left? I just thought, "Okay, I have to do it myself."

John: So when was the last time you spoke to either of those guys?

Boye: Well, I met Antonio in Buenos Aires. [inaudible] Antonio, I met him in Buenos Aires. There was someone with some Italians. So it was nice, actually. Nice to see him. I hadn't seen him for 9 years. So he looked good, like you, John, he looks good. So, yeah, that was fine. I went up and shook his hand. I said, "Yeah, hi." Told him it's like I have nothing against. As persons, I think there are no worse persons, in my view, than all the other bridge players, in a way. But they cheated, which is, of course, very, very bad.

But as persons, as people to be with, to go out for dinners with, I don't feel bad towards them. But, of course, I feel very, very bad towards what they did, cheating-wise, and how they ruined bridge for many years.

John: Did you get death threats during that?

Boye: No, I think the worst thing I got was some, was it Moulton that sent some, Frank Moulton sent some text messages to someone that like some sort of laughing emojis, and said that, "Whenever Boye needs a wheelchair, we have plenty of those in the South," or something like that. That was kind of it. But I never thought, I never felt, but I was really trying to be careful with. I've never been in such a situation. So I called some of the police, and I said, "What would you do if you sort of..." I felt like I was a whistleblower here coming out.

John: Yeah, for sure.

Boye: "What would you do?" And they said, "Maybe when you come out with all these things, just maybe be in a different place than you normally are." So I went to my family camp, and I just spent time there, just to be a little bit away from it. Because I could feel it, like this was very tough on me. Like this psychological, it was very difficult, maybe especially, because they were my friends. I knew I was going to take their livelihood away. They were my friends. They were not my enemies. They were my friends.

John: Another thing Platnick suggested is, he said that he was asking you once how famous you are in Norway?

Boye: Magnus Carlsen, he's famous in Norway. I'm a nobody in Norway.

John: No?

Boye: No. In bridge, and of course, and actually after these came out, these documentaries and stuff, that have happened, actually. I've been in the airports of, "Oh, aren't you that guy that did it against all the cheaters?" "Yeah, yeah, that's me." But I'm not famous at all. No, I'm not. I'm famous in bridge circles, but no, not anywhere else.

John: So we're actually, this interview is in person, live. Some people might just be listening. We also do video. But we're actually in Iceland for it's January. Today's January 24th, I think?

Boye: 26th.

John: Today's the 20, okay.

Boye: I'm a full deck of cards today. You didn't know it.

John: January 26th.

Boye: 26th. I'm 52 today.

John: Oh, today's your birthday?

Boye: Yeah.

John: Oh, my gosh.

Boye: I said to Tony, "I'll just let him know. I wouldn't, like, pre-tell you, but yeah.

John: Oh, my gosh.

Boye: I'm a full [inaudible].

John: Wow. Did he know that?

Boye: No, I don't know that, unless they checked my wife's Facebook or something.

John: Oh, my gosh.

Boye: Probably should put up something nice about me there, I hope.

John: Oh, wow. So, yeah, well, I forget what I was doing. Yeah, so we're [crosstalk].

Boye: 26th of January. For sure, it's 26th.

John: So I'm playing in my first World Bridge Tour event that starts tomorrow. I was going to ask you, I mean, you started the World Bridge Tour, but [crosstalk].

Boye: Yeah, together with Thomas. Thomas Charlsen was the one that had the idea. He helped me a lot during this, like, the cheating scandal. So when he said, "I have this idea maybe to do something." Like a little bit like a News Bridge Federation, in a way, that people you could trust. I think that was the key. Because this was during the pandemic when all this online cheating went down. Then he got this idea that we have to bring people together that we can trust and we can play tournaments. So, Thomas Charlsen was the one that had this idea. And he asked me if I wanted to come along, and I did it. Yeah, I think this is an interesting idea. So that's how it started back in 2020.

John: And this event here has a great feel. You guys are doing an event the day before, 2 days before the NABC in Memphis?

Boye: Yeah, but this is a little bit you see the thing is that the WBF, we started the World Bridge Tour, WBT. But the WBF, they sort of stole our name. And not many people understand this, that when you see the WBT, their mention, it's actually WBF. So this is maybe not so easy to understand. So there are 2 WBTs. It's our World Bridge Tour and it's the WBF's World Bridge Tour.

But the good thing, I've had a long talk with Jan Kamras a couple months ago. And I think we both think, "Okay, maybe it's better that WBF has the WBF Tour. And so it's not all this sort of mixing up. It's the WBT [inaudible]. So now, I guess, going forward, mainly us will be WBT Tour and they will have the WBF Tour. But at the moment, or up to this point, there's been 2 WBTs out there.

John: Yeah, well, thank you so much for being here on your birthday. It's an absolute pleasure and a surprise, and I did speak to Tonje. I have a question that she suggested.

Boye: Okay, yeah.

John: We'll finish with that. I was going to say it was from an anonymous, it was an anonymous question. But she said, how important is having a bridge wife?

Boye: Very important. Very important. I think that, for me, having a non-bridge wife would be very difficult. So it's been fantastic, I would say. Yeah, with Tonje, we met through bridge and we had a lot of fantastic experiences through bridge. Also, in 2005, we had our son in April and in June, we played European Championships in Tenerife, the mixed. And we were 3 couples, the Erichsen-Erichsen, the Helness-Helness, and Brogeland-Brogeland, and we won that event.

So she was breastfeeding our 2-months-old son and we brought 2 of my sisters to look after him. So that was also, like, one of the most fantastic experiences in my life. But the thing is, if you go to Bridge tournaments, you go out, you talk about Bridge also. So for someone that's not sort of involved with bridge to go out and be part of the dinners and stuff, it must be boring. But I know she enjoys it, so it's great to travel the world together to go to these tournaments. And we had so many nice times together both at and away from the table.

John: Well, I'm sorry you're not here, Tonje, but happy birthday, Boye.

Boye: Thank you.

[END]