The Setting Trick

Ep. 77: You Want Aaron “Silversetin” to Be Your Bridge Mentor

Welcome to the Setting Trick podcast, the perfect way to engage with Bridge away from the table. Today, my guest is in-demand tournament player, winner of one of Bridge’s crown jewels, the 2022 Vanderbilt, club owner, multiple club owner, and Junior Bridge mentor extraordinaire, Aaron Silverstein.

Aaron played in the first ever Junior World Championships in 1987, and his daughter, Avery, playing on a team that he mentored, won a silver medal in the 2023 Junior World Championships. See just how much has changed when it comes to Junior Bridge.

Getting Aaron’s perspective as a club owner was really insightful for me, and I think you’ll be surprised at who Aaron wants to partner when he plays in one of his own club games.

Finally, Aaron is very candid about what it’s like to have his main tournament partner win a mixed world championship without him, and playing in tournaments at the highest level, and I think provides some great insight into how to think about your own partnership and teammates.

02:53 Early experiences in bridge

10:01 Challenges and wins in bridge tournaments

30:33 The dynamics of bridge partnerships and bidding strategies

37:15 Navigating the competitive nature of bridge tournaments

59:53 Maintaining composure and focus in bridge play

01:01:22 The art of being tough in bridge

01:03:05 Maintaining focus and resilience

01:07:20 Creating a welcoming bridge environment

01:23:11 Ethical considerations in bridge

01:30:53 Challenges of running a bridge club

TRANSCRIPTION

John McAllister: My name's John McAllister. Welcome to the Setting Trick podcast, the perfect way to engage with Bridge away from the table. Today, my guest is in-demand tournament player, winner of one of Bridge's crown jewels, the 2022 Vanderbilt, club owner, multiple club owner, and Junior Bridge mentor extraordinaire, Aaron Silverstein.

Now, Aaron played in the first ever Junior World Championships in 1987, and his daughter, Avery, playing on a team that he mentored, won a silver medal in the 2023 Junior World Championships. See just how much has changed when it comes to Junior Bridge. Getting Aaron's perspective as a club owner was really insightful for me, and I think you'll be surprised at who Aaron wants to partner when he plays in one of his own club games. Finally, Aaron is very candid about playing in tournaments at the higher level, at the highest level, and I think provides some great insight into how to think about your own partnership and teammates.

Please enjoy my conversation with Aaron Silverstein.

Aaron Silverstein: Nothing's bad. I'm pretty much open. I don't get embarrassed by too much, so you can say whatever. Whatever I say, I say.

John McAllister: I'm really excited to have you, Aaron Silverstein. I should have an introduction. We played each other in the Vanderbilt. You were very complimentary of how I played, which I really appreciated. We tried to give you a run for your money. For three quarters, we were close, and then you beat us. And we've been friends for a long time through Bridge. And you're one of those people, here, I'm going to jinx it, you're one of those people who I feel like it's going to be so easy to talk to that this is just a treat for me. I'm just passenger here, and we're going to let you shine.

Aaron Silverstein: Well, I hope you're going to be the leader here because I don't know exactly what you want out of me, but I'm happy to answer any questions directly and fully.

John McAllister: It's funny, we've been friends... I remember at the Toronto NABC, the summer NABC, I think it was in 2017, I think we played you guys in that tournament as well, and you beat us that time as well on the Rosenthal team. Same team. But I remember Avery was sitting on my lap and just a little girl, and now here she's a Bridge player.

Aaron Silverstein: Well, there's a big difference between eight and 15. And seven years ago, she was eight. Now, she's 15. I'm not ready to accept yet that she's 15. Teenagers grow up very quickly. I will say, there was a huge dividing line for me between 12 and 13. And for her, as a Bridge player, by the way, she learned to play Bridge very young because she was around Bridge clubs her whole life, so she learned at a very young age. Took, actually, lessons at the Bridge Club with Michael Berkowitz when she was five, regular public lessons. Everyone else was retiring. There was one 5-year-old in the class taking the class. She took one beginner class. She now knew everything. She didn't need any more classes.

But between, let's say, five and, I'd say, 13 and a half, 14, she was happy with just playing and she didn't really care too much. Then she got involved in the Junior program and she took it very seriously. And I will say, there's nothing like learning when you're young, because when you're 13, 14, 15, you pick things up and you remember them right away. You're primed to learn. Very different as you get older. She's become a serious Bridge player in the last couple of years.

John McAllister: So we were friends on Bridge Base, and I would see her on there. I'm very surprised that she's taken to it like she has, which is absolutely great. I'm thrilled. I reached out to her about this interview, and she reminded me that you played in the first Junior World Championship.

Aaron Silverstein: It was 1987. It was literally the first time they started up the Juniors. And to show you what the difference is between the way the US sent teams, and the ACBL decided to offer the team as a prize for the Collegiate champion, so the team all had to go to the same university.

John McAllister: Wow.

Aaron Silverstein: So that limited your pool. The team from NYU wanted actually... And I actually got thrown off the team before we went to the Collegiates, just before. I wasn't allowed to compete. They decided that someone else could play in my place. But then the person who was there wasn't eligible, so I was added back on for the Juniors. And they sent four people to the World Championship. It was a team of four, no substitute. It was a very different environment there.

And the captain and coach was someone I've never seen play Bridge in my entire life. He was someone who worked at the ACBL and it was given as a perk for his job. I never met him. To tell you what the coaching was, I never met him or heard his voice until we got to Amsterdam.

John McAllister: Wow.

Aaron Silverstein: And then, of course, by the way, we get there, they send us with four, and one of our members is really sick when he gets there and is not sure he can play. And we have a four-bagger. That's the day before the event, and the ACBL is not willing to pay for someone else to come and add to the team. So we have to find a junior who is vacationing in Europe who is-

John McAllister: Oh my god.

Aaron Silverstein: ... willing to come over and add to our team the day before the event.

John McAllister: Wow.

Aaron Silverstein: So we did that and played five with a couple of partnerships at the last minute.

John McAllister: Wow. And you medaled.

Aaron Silverstein: We came in third, yes.

But what was funny is we actually ran it as... The captain decided, he doesn't know any of us, remember this, so now he has to decide how to line it. It wasn't that important originally because we were a four-man team, exactly four males and a female, but we had a four-person team, and our team, if you have four people, everyone just plays all the time. The captain doesn't make any decisions. Now, we're five, and he doesn't know how any of us play. So his method was he went and interviewed each of us individually about what we thought of everyone else on the team.

John McAllister: Oh my god.

Aaron Silverstein: And his decision was, the person who was added to our team, Billy Hsieh, would play with Jon Heller the whole time, who he had not played with before. Although, Billy Hsieh was New York. I went to high school with him. I actually went to high school with Guy Doherty, who also was another one of my teammates and Asya Kamsky was the person I was playing with. And you can tell, basically none of these people play Bridge anymore, by the way.

John McAllister: Yeah, I did look at the lineup and I didn't recognize any of the names.

Aaron Silverstein: So then eventually, they decided that I would play half with Guy, who I went to high school with, although wasn't regular partners with, because I knew... And half with Asya, who I was played with. And Jon Heller and Billy Hsieh would play at the other table the whole time. So we were a five-bagger with two people sitting out half the time who were both really annoyed that they were being relegated. They were basically saying, "You two have to sit out the whole time. The other three kids don’t sit out at all." So I'm playing with both of them. They're both really annoyed the whole time. It was a huge and …

They did this, it was a small event, so there were two complete round-robins. The first complete round-robin, we came in last. The second complete round-robin, we came in first because we got our bearings. But there were only five teams, so only two teams qualified for the finals, and we came in third after it was all done. We didn't get to play the finals, but we won the bronze medal playoff pretty easily. But it was an interesting experience.

John McAllister: Amazing that you've got such a full recollection of it. This was a long time ago, 37 years.

Aaron Silverstein: Yeah, I'm getting pretty old. '87 was, whatever, 37 years ago. It's a while, but I remember it very clearly.

I even remember my first hand on Vugraph, which I screwed up pretty badly, but it didn't matter. It was for an overtrick. But I decided to duck a trick to rectify the count for a squeeze. I missed one of my tricks. I had all the tricks but one already. So the squeeze was perfect if I didn't duck the trick. But when I ducked the trick, now I just claimed the rest. It was my first hand on Vugraph. I was, whatever I was, I guess '87, so I was about 20. I was about to turn 21. This was before my birthday. And I felt very embarrassed this is what happened. I've got no-

John McAllister: It's amazing you were able to find the person, because '87, the internet is not happening, that you found a guy in Europe the day before to play.

Aaron Silverstein: That was amazing that he was found. I was shocked. I didn't get involved in that. I don't know how they figured out his family was vacationing in Ireland, and this was in Amsterdam. They all flew over to Amsterdam.

John McAllister: Wow. I didn't follow the selection. You said you won the Collegiate trials, or you won the Collegiates, and then you got kicked off.

Aaron Silverstein: You want to go back to the beginning? Okay. The way they decided to figure out what teams were eligible to go to the Collegiate was they had a par contest. Each college could put as many pairs North, South, and East, West as they wanted. The top North/South pair and the top East/West for the college were added up, and whoever had the top, I forget, eight scores, got to go to the, it was Collegiates. I don't remember how many teams it was for the Collegiates, but however many got to go to the Nationals.

So I was supposed to go play with Asya in the par contest, and Barry Goren was going to play with Mitch Hoffing. So we get there and they read the conditions and they realize that Mitch Hoffing, who was to play with Barry Goren, was not eligible. Barry Goren at that time was by far the most experienced player going to NYU at the time. They decided that Barry had to play as one of the pairs. So the person who was running the event, who was directing it with Alan Miller, and he decided that at the time in his judgment, Barry and Asya were the strongest pair they could put together. So I got put playing with Mitch Hoffing. So I played with Mitch Hoffing. We actually had a very good score, the top score in our direction-

John McAllister: In the par contest?

Aaron Silverstein: In the par contest-

John McAllister: In the par contest.

Aaron Silverstein: ... with Mitch, but we weren't eligible because Mitch wasn't eligible. So the two pairs that went were Jon Heller and Guy, and Barry and Asya. They qualified for the Collegiates. Barry, on the other hand, was a little too old, so he didn't qualify for the Juniors. So when that, he won the Juniors, I replaced Barry.

John McAllister: You mean they won the Collegiates?

Aaron Silverstein: They won the Collegiates. I now became the fourth member for the Juniors.

John McAllister: So you went to NYU?

Aaron Silverstein: I did go to NYU, yes.

John McAllister: Willenken thought you went to college in Rochester.

Aaron Silverstein: I did. I started at Rochester and transferred to NYU.

John McAllister: Got it.

Aaron Silverstein: I didn't finish either of those places, though. What happened, although this is irrelevant to Bridge, because my stopping point in college had nothing to do with playing Bridge, I actually wasn't playing that much Bridge then, was that I had a part-time job doing computer work while I was in college, and they kept on wanting me to work more and more. And it got to the point where I was like, "Oh, I think I'm going to make computers my career. They already want me to work full-time. They don't care if I finish my degree." So I was like, "I'll just start working as a programmer and consultant."

Then, after about six or seven years ago of that, I discovered I really didn't like it. But at that point, I had already made the decision. If I had to do it over again, I would've gotten my degree just because it gives you more flexibility when you want to change things later. If I continued on the computer path, it probably wouldn't have mattered that much. You have a certain amount of years of experience programming, they don't really care what your college degree is, especially then, where there were a lot of people learning their path.

John McAllister: So then what happened?

Aaron Silverstein: The next thing I did was, in this traditional Bridge player mode, I went to doing some trading on the floor of the AMEX. I did that. The group I was with dissolved, and I talked to other groups and I was trying to decide what I wanted to do and I decided I'd take some time off and do some professional Bridge to make some money while I was trying to decide what I wanted to do. And apparently, I haven't decided yet. That was about '95, '96. I don't remember exactly what year that was. Maybe a little later, maybe '97, '98, but it was over 25 years ago.

John McAllister: And your wife, Gennifer, is a Bridge player.

Aaron Silverstein: Yeah.

John McAllister: But she doesn't come to the tournaments anymore.

Aaron Silverstein: No, she got out of the habit when Avery was little. She hasn't been coming as much. And now, we're involved in the New York City Bridge clubs. We own a club in Long Island. We own a club in Westchester. So in some ways, when I travel to Bridge tournaments, it's better for there to be someone to watch the businesses at home. In some ways, it's awkward for her to go when I'm going.

John McAllister: I see.

Aaron Silverstein: Most of the time, she ends up not coming.

John McAllister: Right. I haven't seen her in a long time. And I spelled her name wrong in a text. But she didn't respond to my text, I don't think.

Aaron Silverstein: She probably wasn't paying attention. She tends to ... She would've responded if she knew. Or she was really angry at you for misspelling her name. I'm sure no one's ever spelled her name with a J before. Her name is Gennifer, starts with a G.

John McAllister: I did get the G, but I shorted her an N, I think.

Aaron Silverstein: Okay. Well, the rest of her name is spelled the traditional Jennifer way.

John McAllister: I looked her up on ACBL score actually, because I knew her last name, Binder. This is probably riveting for the listeners.

Your biggest win arguably is the NAP C 1988.

Aaron Silverstein: So probably Vanderbilt was bigger, but okay. NAP C, the North American Pairs Flight, which was Flight B at that point because there were only two Flights, but they relisted as Flight C. They've devoted it to Flight C after the fact, because it was non-life master, which is now what's called Flight C. But there was only Flight A and Flight B at the time.

John McAllister: Got it.

Aaron Silverstein: And I played it with Brad Moss when I was, I guess, 21 and he was maybe 16 or 17. He was young. We were very, very confident that we would win easily. And we had a lot of good sessions. I think in the National final, we won the district easily, National finals, we had 65, 65, 67.

John McAllister: Wow.

Aaron Silverstein: And then the last session was tough, but it was still 53, 54. But the fact is when you have enough carryover and enough game, we still won pretty easily.

John McAllister: Did you think you'd won it?

Aaron Silverstein: I didn't really think about it. I was just playing each board, annoyed when I got bad boards. But one of the big things is, do you remember everything was done much more automatically? I had no idea really how it was going. I always felt like we were going to win.

What was funny is after... We played two events that tournament. We played the Swiss the final weekend, and we picked up teammates, who were good teammates, I'm not arguing, but we picked up teammates. And for a while, we were leading the event as a Flight C pair. We fell out at the end, but we were in the top 10 playing with pre-dupe boards through six matches of the final day. Then we had a couple bad matches again, but we were not that experienced.

John McAllister: Is this summer? So NAP is summer, so that's... No, NAPs is spring, so it's two-day Swiss.

Aaron Silverstein: Two-day Swiss. And also, remember, this is a very old schedule. The schedule has nothing to do with what it was like then. In the summer when I first started, the final weekend was just a mixed board match. That was the only event the final weekend, a two-day mixed board match.

John McAllister: So how'd you start? Well, the Spingold was still going on, wasn't it?

Aaron Silverstein: The last two days was the Spingold.

John McAllister: So you got second in the Spingold, I think, in maybe in Toronto, was it? Or was it-

Aaron Silverstein: It was Atlanta.

John McAllister: ... the year after Toronto?

Aaron Silverstein: It was Atlanta.

John McAllister: Atlanta.

Aaron Silverstein: It was a little after Toronto. Toronto was our... I think we beat you by a couple of IMPs. We kept on winning by four IMPs. We beat a team with Passell and Compton, those guys on it, small. We beat Lavazza really small. We kept on beating everyone really small.

I will say, having been on both sides of a lot of really close matches, when it's within 10 IMPs, it's really random who won it. After it's all over, you can say it was skill, but it really isn't. You play 60 boards, and there'll be some... Everyone who loses can point to four boards where, "Oh, if this had been the other way, they would've won it." But the question is just, how many of those go each way?

John McAllister: But you did. You won the Vanderbilt in Reno. What was that like?

Aaron Silverstein: Well, that was another one where it was incredibly exciting all the time. What's funny is our semifinals and finals, we won pretty easily, but the two rounds before it, we were down with five boards to go. So it was very, very, very nerve-racking and very exciting.

John McAllister: Wow.

Aaron Silverstein: But it's strange, it's funny, I will say, the earlier matches, I was much more nervous when we're not doing well. When we got further on, I was comfortable. And I've played enough of these over time and lost enough of these close matches in my life that the matches being close isn't that tense for me. I can just sit there, play my best Bridge, just play board after board after board and not worry about it too much.

Right now, I've been playing mostly... Well, depending on which, Andrew and I either play, first half is our current lineup, but we used to play second and third usually. We just play whatever sets our teammates don't want to play, honestly. You're playing half, but we're almost never playing the fourth quarter. That's my hardest quarter. I can't stand sitting out the fourth quarter when it's close.

John McAllister: Oh, really?

Aaron Silverstein: Really hard.

John McAllister: Wow.

Aaron Silverstein: It eats at me.

John McAllister: Why? Why do you think that is?

Aaron Silverstein: Because you're not in control. I like to be in control of my own destiny. If I can play boards, it makes me feel much better. I can do something about it. Sitting back and waiting and being a good teammate, which, you know what? I actually try not to watch the boards when I'm sitting out because I don't want to be analyzing what my teammates could have done better or what they could have done worse, because they're all really good players, so they had a reason for what they did. I might not agree with it, but sometimes when I don't agree with it, they're right, sometimes I'm right. And the fact that it works or doesn't work, didn't work, doesn't mean it's right or wrong. So it's easier for me if I don't analyze, was that a good play? Was that a good bid? It makes me happier, and I think it makes me a better teammate if that's the case.

John McAllister: But you know the score, don't you?

Aaron Silverstein: I do. What I tend to do, if it's on Vugraph, is I tend to not watch at all for the first half hour, 40 minutes, get a score, and then check more and more frequently as it gets closer later and later. But I try not to watch the individual hands, because if I watch the individual hands, I'm sitting there saying, "Play this card. Play this card," and it [inaudible 00:24:05]... And by the time I'm done watching 10 boards, I'm more tired than if I played 20 boards. It's healthier for me not to watch. For the Spingolds when we were close in those close matches down for the last four, I would be sitting out there waiting to be there for the comparison. So I'd watch the last two boards. I was watching them with Migry usually, actually. And so... So she-

John McAllister: Because they finished ahead of the other pair? Migry?

Aaron Silverstein: Usually, well... There was always a pair that finished ahead. Well, at that point we had Christian and Jan. And Boye and Christian.

John McAllister: Oh, Migry wasn't on the team?

Aaron Silverstein: No, she wasn't on the team. She used to be on the team. She was on our team when we got to the finals of the Spingolds with David. At this point it was Boye and Christian instead. Boye and Christian, not very fast. They will always finish last, usually by four boards. So you-

John McAllister: I remember when we came out in our match against you guys in Louisville. I don't know. I was hopeful based on the conversation that you had with Chris, I think. I was like, "Oh, maybe that's..." Anyway. I was totally wrong. I misread the situation.

Aaron Silverstein: It's better when you're talking... I actually think it's better for your team... When I finish, I'm always thinking, "What could we have done better, Andrew and I done better?" Because that's what's in our control. You don't want to be the teammate who says, "Well, we would've won if they just hadn't done this."

John McAllister: Oh, yeah. No. I 100% agree with you about that.

Aaron Silverstein: Even to a random stranger who's your friend, even to whatever. Because if you're thinking that way, then... You can't do anything about your teammate. You want to be thinking what could you have done better. And that's what I always think is... Even if I think my partner made a mistake, sometimes I'm thinking, "Well, my partner could have gotten this right, but was there something I could have done that would've made it easier for him to get it right?"

John McAllister: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I agree.

Aaron Silverstein: And that's very important is that you worry about yourself. I always think that... I can tell a lot about a bridge player. This is a simple thing. When something went wrong and they give you a hand, do they give you their hand or their partner's hand? If they give you their partner's hand, they're interested in whose fault it is. If they give you their hand, they're interested in what they could have done better, how they could improve. And it's very important to worry about your hand first. And if you give it to a bunch of people and they do the exact same thing who are people you respect, then you probably bid fine. If they do something different, maybe that would've triggered your partner to do something better and different and you could think about that.

John McAllister: Yeah. Yeah. How do you figure out... There's a hand. So one of the kids who's... So Avery, your daughter who we started talking about, she won a medal in the juniors this year. Silver medal? This past year?

Aaron Silverstein: Silver medal in the under 16. Yeah.

John McAllister: In the under 16. And you're mentoring her team and I think the other under 16 team that played in the Worlds too. Is that right?

Aaron Silverstein: I mean, technically I helped mentor her team. I did one day. Someone else did a second day. And I also was the NPC and mentored with Barry Goren actually. He helped mentor an under 21 team, not the other under 16 team. An under 21 team, who actually also won a silver medal.

John McAllister: But you play with these kids. And Ethan Derman is... So you and I play... Ethan Derman lives in Baltimore, which is a couple hours away from me. There was a regional there last year. I played with Ethan. You played with Avery. We won the event we played in, which was really cool. And Ethan was on the team that won the silver medal with Avery. I mean, you're playing and giving these kids a lot of feedback, right?

Aaron Silverstein: The thing that's great about them, because I've been involved in the junior program with a bunch of groups for years, and these kids actually listen and work hard at it and that's why they got better very quickly. They do practice when they can two nights a week for two hours, plus they practice themselves. They play up by themselves. They really work at it. And now that a variation of that team is hoping to play in the U21. They're playing the U21 trials this December. So I'm helping mentor that group. And they get a lot better because they want a serious review after it's all over. They play all the boards. We go over all the boards on the Zoom. And Avery says I'm not mean enough, but realistically, even if I'm not being mean, I do tell them what I think is right and wrong. And the fact is it's really useful when you have someone telling you. I would've learned much quicker when I was younger if there was someone who's telling me everything. Although there were a bunch of good players who would give me advice and that helped enormously.

John McAllister: Right. So how do you figure out... For example, I played this hand with Ethan recently. I had singleton, two little, queen-fourth, king-sixth. And we're favorable and we're playing IMPs and they open a heart on your left and your partner bids two hearts and now the next hand bids two spades, which is a good raise of hearts, and I wanted to play in his minor at the five level and so I bid... Well, I mean, wouldn't you want to play... Wouldn't you want your partner to bid... Wouldn't you want to get to your partner's minor?

Aaron Silverstein: I would. Now the question is... I normally would teach them that 2NT is a good hand with the minor. Three clubs is pass-or-correct, so not as good. The question is whether you play that going all the way up to 4NT.

John McAllister: Right. Yes. Exactly.

Aaron Silverstein: My instinct is not to, because you don't want... Because I think when you jump to 4NT, it's presumed... Especially when it’s presumed to be preemptive. You don't need it to be a slam try or it's our hand. You can always cuebid so it's our hand first if you want to. So I think I would just bid 4NT, and I have five clubs be natural, but it's fine to play the other way. But this is the kind of thing I would discuss, why you're doing it, not just what you're doing but why you're doing it. If you want to, if you're vulnerable, you could play the 4NT says it's our hand probably. And so if they bid, we want to double them or bid. And five clubs just pass-or-correct, not creating a forcing pass. That's very reasonable. And playing consistent is valuable, because it’s actually much more important than having the perfect agreement is both being on the same wavelength.

And if you want to play for consistency, it's always the same, no-trump is always constructive, a good hand and clubs is always pass-or-correct, that probably makes a lot of sense. I haven't thought of this exact thing, but that's the way I would think about discussing the hand.

John McAllister: Yeah. See what you did was really great because you saw the problem immediately, but you also had a meta... Like you said. I mean, yeah, you analyzed that problem really well I think and the bridge of it and... Yeah.

Aaron Silverstein: I spent a lot of years teaching bridge. And people say that when I start... When you ask me a question, I don't answer the question ever directly because I want... You're never going to have the same hand. So what I try to answer is how you should think about the problem so that when you have a hand similar to it that's a little different, what will make you choose one thing over another.

John McAllister: Right. That's exactly right. That is how you should think about it. Yeah. Yeah. The problem is if you have clubs, if you have clubs, you can never bid them if you play that. The minor is always pass-or-correct.

Aaron Silverstein: That's true. And you do lose the ability to ever play clubs. But the question is how often do you want to play? Do you have a solid... I've been playing this method for probably close to 20 years and I haven't really missed the needing to play clubs. Yes, you have to play them one level higher, but you know what you can do if you want to? You bid three clubs, then four clubs, if you need to, but how often do you want to play clubs when your partner's showing at least five, five and two other suits?

John McAllister: Well, it's funny because actually I have a hand where my partner, I had eight clubs. And I probably should have passed because they bid 3NT. My partner showed a two suiter. And now the opponent's bid 3NT. And I passed over because the next hand bid diamonds natural and forcing. My partner showed a two suiter. I forget which major they had. And I passed and now the next hand bid 3NT. And now I came back in with four clubs and she bid four diamonds because she thought... I thought she had clubs now because the other person had diamonds, which I knew. I knew she had diamonds.

Aaron Silverstein: The danger. Yeah. Your partner might view, but yes, your partner should realize that you know that they might have... Your partner should trust you. And if you had clubs and diamonds and wanted her to choose, you would just get five, four clubs directly. You wouldn't stop and let them. And that's one of those things where I actually always believe that if you have a bid, you should make it so you don't do it the next time and say, "Oh, I wanted to bid this the last time." Because why let them find out they want to bid three no before you bid four clubs if you had clubs and diamonds? Wouldn't you just bid four clubs directly, or 3NT, pick a minor? Although think it's a little weird to say pick a minor when your partner... When they've shown a game forcing hand with diamonds, but...

John McAllister: How do you play the hand I gave you with Andrew Rosenthal, the partner you're winning the Vanderbilt with?

Aaron Silverstein: We generally play that 2NT is constructive, but 4NT is not. 4NT is just pick a minor and five club is to play.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Aaron Silverstein: We don't play extends. We do play it extends to the four level if it was forced to the four level already. It's only the minimum number of no-trump where we play. No-trump is constructive and the minor is pass-or-correct.

John McAllister: So say it goes like a spade, two spades and they bid four hearts?

Aaron Silverstein: Or four spades, then four no would be a good hand and five clubs would be pass-or-correct.

Speaker 1: Okay. Got it.

Aaron Silverstein: It's more important over four spades and over four hearts, which is game forcing. Shows high cards. When they make an ambiguous hand, it's unclear who's hand it is, like one spade, two spades, four spades. That's when you need to know whether your partner is bidding to make or to... When it goes, one spade, two spades, four hearts splinter and they're making a slam try, it's not that important to be able to bid constructive [inaudible 00:37:55].

John McAllister: Got it. Yeah. That's the thing about bridge. It's like... Everything you said just makes perfect sense. Wait. So do you play that it's different over... You play it the same either way with Andrew though?

Aaron Silverstein: Or four hearts and four spades, yes, but... You don't need it different. First of all, neither one of us is... We're not impractical enough to assume over a splinter that someone's making a forcing bid. So if someone bid four no, maybe it's supposed to according to our agreement be a good hand, but I would just assume it was minors and not worry about a good hand anymore. And if they [inaudible 00:38:40] their splinter and then, too bad.

John McAllister: Right. How confident are you that Andrew would remember this part of the system?

Aaron Silverstein: He's actually very good at remembering the system, but this part, if there was an auction where it seemed like it was impossible to show a good hand, he might not think, "Oh. He's going to think I have a good hand." He's not going to think, "I'm going to punish him," when it's obvious what his hand is. And that's generically true for us. One of the things I think is the biggest problem that partnerships have is there are people who say, "Oh, it hurts partnership trust when you do this or that."

You know what partnership trust should be? The partnership trust should be that every time I trust that you're trying to do what will get us the best score. If you think the percentage action to get us the best score is not to trot out an obscure agreement that I might not remember. I'm not going to be mad at you for doing something that hasn't come up in eight years and is our agreement and maybe would've worked on this hand, but is it worth the risk of having a ridiculous accident? You trust that you're going to do it. Partner passes a forcing bid, they think that's the percentage action. They should be able to do what they think will work the best on average and not worry that ruins partnership trust.

John McAllister: Right. Well, you two have been partners for a long time.

Aaron Silverstein: We have been playing together... The first... And we weren't playing all the events together. I was actually playing on a different team at that point, but the first event I played with Andrew was in the 2004 New York National.

John McAllister: Wow.

Aaron Silverstein: It was if the LM Pairs in the summer of 2004. At that point I was playing on a team with Judy Bianco and then I guess about three or four years later, we started playing together regularly. But it's been at least 15 years, probably more.

John McAllister: Do you get jealous when his team wins the World Championship in the mixed?

Aaron Silverstein: It's a mix. It's mixed feelings. There's always a little bit of jealousy, but mostly I'm really happy for them. They're all good friends of mine. So you always want it to be you doing it, but if it's not me, I'd rather it's people I like. So... I'm unhappy with... I have too many friends in the bridge world to be that unhappy when my friends win something.

John McAllister: Right. I mean, you think Andrew was more excited when he won the Vanderbilt or when he won the World Championship?

Aaron Silverstein: I don't know. Part of the difference is that he was... I'm sure he was really excited each time and he is not measuring the comparison. And part of it is I wasn't there when he won the World Championship. So I can see how happy he was when he won the Vanderbilt.

John McAllister: What was that like? I mean, the Vanderbilt, I equate the Vanderbilt... I love golf, play a lot of golf, a lot of golf friends. Vanderbilt, I equate to a Major. That's winning like the Masters, I think.

Aaron Silverstein: It was really exciting. It seemed like we lost a ton of close semifinals before we got to the first final. And the first final we got to was close and we were within 10 IMPs going into the fourth quarter. I think we were down nine going into the fourth quarter. But whatever it was, it was very close. So it felt like it was in our grasp to potentially win it. So you feel like you've lost all these close matches. So when you finally win one, it's just a relief. You can actually win. I was very excited. It's a great event to win. It makes you feel good for a while. And then you feel like you're going to win them all again, but of course that never happens.

John McAllister: And then you added Geir Helgemo to the team who in Zia's book Bridge: A Love Story, he says that Geir is the best bridge player in the world.

Aaron Silverstein: And hopefully one of the differences is there's always a problem. Pairs are always not as effective when they're just starting out together. Everyone on our team is a great bridge player. So I feel like everyone's going to work out. We didn't have a great year last year, and I don't think anyone played their best, but I think everyone is capable of having... We could have a good run and just win the next event. And if you win one, it doesn't matter that you had a bad last 12 months. You feel... It doesn't matter at all.

John McAllister: Yeah. When I was telling people... My highlight from Louisville was playing you guys close for three quarters and telling people about that. I'm like... I mean, Boye Brogeland and Geir Helgemo are two of the most well-known names in bridge, I think it's fair to say.

Aaron Silverstein: Yeah. As an example, the first open national event I won was with Chris Willenken. I think around 2000, the fast pairs. And I almost left that tournament. I was so despondent at how badly I was doing, so I wanted to leave.

John McAllister: Oh, wow.

Aaron Silverstein: And then we decided to play.... I decided to stay for the last week and play with Chris, play the fast pairs. And we won. And then I was really happy. It didn't matter that the rest of that nationals was the worst nationals I ever had. It just felt like I couldn't break average for eight days. But for a long time that's the best nationals I ever had because I won and it didn't matter if the rest of it was garbage.

John McAllister: Right. So how much do you play with Avery as a partner?

Aaron Silverstein: Not as much as I would like to. She's pretty busy. And I've played a few regional events with her. Not many. I would say five or six. We've done pretty well. A couple... I play at the club when we're both around, but I'm pretty busy during the year. And her life is... She does bridge all the time. She has all her junior partners and her junior friends. She does a lot of mixed martial arts.

John McAllister: Oh, wow.

Aaron Silverstein: A lot. I mean, she goes and trains five or six days a week for two hours.

John McAllister: Wow.

Aaron Silverstein: She took up rugby at school this year. Her life is a little bit crazy. So she doesn't have much free time. I'm actually going to play my first national event with her in Toronto this summer. I'm going to play the Life Master Pairs with her the first weekend.

John McAllister: Oh, wow. How'd that come to pass?

Aaron Silverstein: I didn't have anything scheduled for that weekend, so it seemed like a good opportunity to do it. And so I asked her if it was a possibility and she said sure, because... Normally when I play with Andrew, I play with him not the first event, because it's good, first of all, for him to play with other people and, second of all, he likes to play with other people some. And also, although I've been really good friends with Andrew for a long time... I was actually friendly with him for a long time before I started playing with him. So I've been friendly with him for a long time. It's hard to play 10 days in a row with him. It just is. Everything that goes wrong... If the tournament's not going well, you get a little edgy with things that go wrong. So it's better to play three days with someone else first.

Usually we play the first event separately. Although the advent of the Soloway has made it to the fall nationals. So we always play all 10 days. Once the team events start, we usually keep playing, if we get knocked out and fall into a pair event. In the fall, if we get knocked in a Soloway early, we get to play the blue ribbon. Hopefully... Our goal is always not to play any pair events.

John McAllister: Yeah. For those listening, at the nationals, the main events are the team-

For those listening at the nationals, the main events are the team events. That's the highest level of bridge, I think.

Aaron Silverstein: It definitely is. It's nice to play. One of the best things, most fun is... That's why I get actually the most disappointed when we lose one of those events, because you're out of it. There's nothing else you can do. There are other events at the nationals, but it's not the same thing once you get knocked out of the Vanderbilt or the Spingold. Even the Swiss is in the last weekend, which are pretty strong. You're playing some teams which are not that good usually. You drew a couple of rounds, easy draws.

In the Spingold or Vanderbilt, once you get through... Right now, there are a lot of good teams. Once you get to the round of 32, you're usually playing very good players. As a relatively high seat. If you're seated somewhere lower, once you get to the rep, it's all good players when around 64 on. And there's nothing like having to play all 60 boards against good teams.

John McAllister: Do you know how many seating points you have?

Aaron Silverstein: Now? Less than I did a year ago. I was almost maxed at 70. Last spring, I had 69 point something. Now I'm down to about 60. Because we had a bad year. So, we need to have a good few matches to get back up close to 70.

John McAllister: Do you guys go out for dinner as a team?

Aaron Silverstein: Not that much, honestly. Part of it is that... We're on a different schedule. We're playing the first half. And I actually take the nationals, now that I'm a little older. I'm going to turn 58 this summer. I take it very seriously when I'm playing, and I try to make sure I eat early, I'm ready, I get a lot of sleep, and I'm not that worried. I usually go out for one team dinner early on, when it's not that serious. After that, rarely. We mostly eat quickly and relax.

You could ask Avery. The nationals are all about me getting enough sleep for me. I want to make sure I'm alert. I wake up a certain amount of time before, so I have time to wake up, have a little something to eat, get coffee, and have it go through. So, get up a couple, and at least an hour and a half before the game, get myself set up, play bridge. When I'm done playing bridge, the first thing I do is probably take a nap, then I go to get some sleep at night. My whole schedule is about being alert and playing at my best for the whole day.

Although I enjoy seeing people, and I want to go out, this is a very serious stuff for me. I'm not going to the nationals to have fun. I do have fun. I do like seeing people. I do go out, have a drink with people, do some things. But it's not a priority to me.

John McAllister: Right. When you make a mistake on a hand, I don't know how you categorize a mistake. But let's say you get something wrong on a hand, what's that dynamic like?

Aaron Silverstein: Well, Avery is a very sassy teenager. It's not like when I was a kid. By the way, my parents are very laid-back, but still, I would never have considered insulting my parents to their face. It won't have even occurred to me. Avery has no compunction. If she says something behind me, and I don't hear her, she says, "That because you're deaf." You know? Anything you do wrong, she's capable.

She has that teenager sort of, "I don't want to do anything, I don't want to say anything's wrong." But on the other hand, I will say, the good thing about the dynamic is, if I tell her what she did wrong, she will tell me, "No." She'll argue with me, it doesn't matter. She'll tell me what I did wrong all the time. But she does listen to me, and she will change what she does based on what I say.

In life or in bridge, she actually listens to my advice. She won't tell me she's listening to it at the time. And that's part of being 15, I think. But she actually is very good at listening to what people tell her, deciding whether or not she agrees with it. And if she does, and deciding outside of her own ego, which is not always easy to do. But I think that's why she's gotten a lot better very quickly, is because if someone tells her what she did was wrong, she'll think about it, and try to do differently the next time. Even if her first response is, "No, it was obvious,"

John McAllister: I was in communication with you a little bit, in Schomburg, because you were there with Avery and Ethan. They were playing together in the mixed. And it was two-day round-robin, I think. And after the first... All, but the last match on day one, I think they were in first place.

Aaron Silverstein: And they were in second after the last match.

John McAllister: Right.

Aaron Silverstein: Yeah. They were playing really well together, and they did great. They didn't have a great second day, and... whatever. Again, their whole team played great the first day, and didn't play as well the second day. But to me, what was the most impressive was they could play with. There were some really top players there, and they played with them. I'm not saying they were the best pair of the events, they weren't. They clearly belonged in the event. And they were doing really well and...

It is hard to play two days in a row, all the boards, and it's hard to play against all the good teams. I think it was a good learning experience to see the highs and the lows, and not to let... If you have some bad boards, and your team's not doing well, not to let it keep rolling. I think a lot more teams lose matches through negative momentum. You're not actually ever hot, right? Because it's going well doesn't mean your finesses are going to work better another time. So, you just have to keep playing right, and hope it works more, but you can definitely get cold.

You start second guessing your own judgment, and not playing bridge the way that you... playing to your best, you can play badly, and have a bunch of bad boards in a row. And that's easy to do if you get depressed. If anyone's depressed, they're not playing their best bridge. So, if you're upset with what went on... It's part of the reason I actually don't want to watch my teammates play. If they do something stupid, I'm human. I might get pissed off at it.

So, I don't want to know if they made a mistake. Why do I want to know that? Well, it's not going to help me play better the next day. And I can only control how I play. And so, you have to sit there and say, "You know what? Next board." Just go and try to play bridge, each board like it was a new event.

John McAllister: There was a great bridge winner's post that a young man... I don't know. I don't... Siriam Ganasson.

Aaron Silverstein: Yeah. Bork, yeah. Bork Truck is his BBO name.

John McAllister: What is it?

Aaron Silverstein: Bork Truck is his BBO name.

John McAllister: And he was in some terrible contract. Two spades doubled in a 6-0 fit. Anyway, so he was basically ready to give up. And he wrote this post because you said, "No, you need to grind on this hand." He was sort of ready to give up when he got in this terrible contract. Anyway, I was playing in a golf tournament this weekend, a three days stroke play. I did not play very well, first day, second day, front nine of the third day.

And I thought about this instance, and I thought about, this builds character. And I actually shot one over par on the back nine. And I had a respectable score, at least on the third day, because of that. I'm not doing a good job of setting up the story here, can you take over the...

Aaron Silverstein: He was in one of my earlier junior groups. And he was actually someone who I enjoyed because... I always enjoyed when I mentor. There have been some group where I mentor, they never asked me a question. Right? It's like if I'm doing a Zoom or something. It's like I'm lecturing the whole time.

John McAllister: Right. Yeah.

Aaron Silverstein: You know what? To some extent, I do try to give to them the answers, but I'm going to put more effort in if they seem interested. He was someone who was always worked very hard on everything. And one of the things I told him at the time was, "Look, you're going to be in crappy contracts double. You know what? And if you're going for 500 against there, it's not great. But when you make it 1,100 or 1,400, because you just don't care, that makes a big difference."

And also, you know what, the opponents don't always defend accurately when you're in a stupid contract because they don't always realize how bad a contract you're in. So, sometimes you're in huge base double, and they're thinking, "Oh my God, if he has this hand, maybe he's making it." Right? So, they're trying to make sure they're not going minus pick 70. So, they let you get a trick or two more because they're just trying to make sure they beat it.

You know that you have no shot, but they don't always know. So, you grind, and you try take as many tricks as you can. Every once in a while, they're in the same contract as the other table. I still remember one of the early mixed board match that I played in. It was back when I didn't realize that doubling two clubs was sort of silly to play two and clubs. But at both tables, we actually went two clubs, double pass, pass, redouble, all pass.

John McAllister: Yeah.

Aaron Silverstein: The person who doubled two clubs, that ace, queen, 10, 9, 8, 6 of the club. Right? And declared king, jack, club, and the rest of the cards. So, both declares didn't play carefully, made two clubs redouble. But they played it carefully. They could have stripped out the whole hand, and played them twice, giving them the king, jack, club, and held them to four club tricks. They weren't careful.

And when they played out a club out of their hand, they had king, jack, five, two. And whatever the clubs were, if they played the five of clubs out at the end, they had to win on their left, and give them two club tricks. If they played the two of clubs out of their hand, they could back it around to their partner. So, both people made two clubs redouble. But neither one of them made three. The two clubs redoubled at 760, which is more than all the games they were called first. They weren't called first file.

John McAllister: Right.

Aaron Silverstein: But at the other table, it was actually the same thing. So, playing a little carefully meant the whole board. And it was the opposite. They were so happy with their result, they didn't try to see how they can maximize it.

John McAllister: Yeah. Right.

Aaron Silverstein: I still remember the hand. Actually, in the Vanderbilt that we won, they happened to make a little bit of a spec double against me in three notrump. And they were wrong. But I played carefully, and theoretically risked my contract, but not really. I knew the hand, which was the difference between three notrump double plus one, and three notrump double plus three.

John McAllister: Wow.

Aaron Silverstein: And 950 is a good score, but 1,350 is a really good score.

John McAllister: Yeah.

Aaron Silverstein: And sometimes, when they make a misjudgment, you have to punish them to max. Or when you make a misjudgment, you want to make it the minimum, and that can make a huge difference in a match that's going on. That's what I call being tough. Being tough means you don't settle, and you don't give up. Every hand, you do the best you can with what... Because happened before is irrelevant.

I've seen too many bridge players who give up. They did something stupid on a hand, and so, now, they're now like, "Well, I'm in this place on the hand, what can I do to make it now?" They're like, "Why did I do that? That was stupid." And now, they go down on a hand they could have recovered.

John McAllister: Yeah.

Aaron Silverstein: And that's why I say, it doesn't matter how you got to where you are, what contract you're in, how you got to the place in the middle of the hand, you're here. Once you're here, you have to do your best. And that's what grinding is. Every hand, every trick, you give your best.

John McAllister: I wish I'd thought of it. I mean, actually, it wasn't in the situation as much earlier in the tournament, but it actually... I mean, it really did. I mean, I really was inspired by this story to...

Aaron Silverstein: That's always very sweet. I always like it. There've been a few times students have posted something, and I don't think that what I said was that deep at the time. But sometimes that resonates with someone in a certain situation, and it's very important.

John McAllister: Yeah.

Aaron Silverstein: Yeah.

John McAllister: And we'll have a link to that in the show notes on our website. And also, just want to say, when you get that 1,350, as opposed to 950, that's really emotionally difficult for your opponents too.

Aaron Silverstein: And that's actually by the way. One of the reasons that sometimes high variance pairs do very well is because high variance pairs are already... They budget bad scores. They've had a bunch of them in their lives. So, if they have a bad board, they shake it off. You know, if you're playing it against an experienced pair who preempts wildly, they've gone for 1,400 before.

John McAllister: Right.

Aaron Silverstein: Right? It doesn't affect them. But if they steal a game from you, where you feel stupid, it might affect you. And it's important to not let it. It's like, "Yeah, they got me." You can be pissed at it, because no one likes to lose. But you can't think about it the next chance. Any energy you spend thinking about it, you're not thinking about what you're supposed to be. Focus is the hardest part of bridge.

John McAllister: Oh, okay. I mean, how do you coach that, with Avery and Ethan, and these kids?

Aaron Silverstein: Well, the main thing is, I don't accept as an excuse, that I was distracted. In other words, it's like, "Oh, I'm tired because I had a long day of whatever." I'm like, "Well, you know what happens when you had a long day of water polo for Ethan, or whatever?" He does different sports all the time.

You know what happens after the long day? You learn how to play bridge when you're tired. Because focusing through, you're not feeling you're physically best. You're not going to do your best. But you never want it to be an excuse. You never want to say, "I lost because..." You lost.

So, when you're tired, you have to play your best you can when you're tired. Maybe you have to think a little longer each hand. Maybe you should focus a little more. But you don't want to say, "I'm tired, so that's the reason I didn't do well." That's what I tell them. After it's all over, you can see that there was an excuse. But when you're playing, there can't be any excuses in your mind. "Oh, I wouldn't have done this if..." No, you shouldn't have done that.

There may be extenuating factors, but you still made a mistake. And so, that being tough, especially on young kids, but I... By the way, I actually think that's a lot of why, through the teams that I was involved in, Avery's and Ethan's team, and the other team, with Rory, Jonathan, whatever. I won't go through all the names. They were not the favorite team.

In other words, when you went into that, there was the USA one teams, the USA two teams. The USA one teams were both favored to do very well in their categories. Both the USA two teams beat them head to head. And I think some of it is coaching toughness. They were all tough. They didn't let anything get to them, they played really well.

Maybe they would have lost to other teams on a different day. But they didn't. And when the things went their way, they made sure they kept tough the whole time. And it's hard to play a team that's playing well the whole time, even if theoretically, you're better. I've lost to enough teams that I think I shouldn't have lost to because they had a good day, and they were tough.

John McAllister: Yeah. How does this compare with your... You guys done several bridge clubs. How does what we're talking about compare with how you relate to your club players?

Aaron Silverstein: Well, first of all, I think bridge clubs are a very different animal than serious tournament bridge. Because bridge clubs are competitive, but they're also very social. So, I see all these posts on Bridge Winners, and something else, where someone's saying, "Oh, someone in a limited game open two clubs on a hand that's technically illegal. You should give them a procedural penalty." And to me, that kind of thinking is crazy.

When you're running a Bridge club, it's competitive, you want to obey the rules. But you want to do it with understanding and compassion that people are there to have fun. So, when you're running a bridge club, sure, you talk to people, you answer their question, but you want to nurture them and feel like it's a good environment. There are some people who are trying to be serious tournament players, but most people there are not.

And you have to understand what your role is. Bridge doesn't have to be. It's like golf. Most people who play golf aren't trying to go play in tournaments, or do anything. Even not nearly what you... let alone be on the PGA Tour. They're going to have an afternoon of fun. You have to understand that that's what they're doing. You don't want to be. And so, for bridge club, I try to have people be able to enjoy the game. I try to run it the way that's the most fun for people.

I'm always there to answer questions. One of the things I think is that if you're running a bridge club, if you're there as the expert, you are a resource for them. It doesn't cost anything to be friendly, and discuss hands, and have them be able to ask you questions. Make it a warm and welcoming environment. That's really what my goal is.

One of the things I like to do, which some of people... Actually, the club I now run in Westchester, some of the people don't like it. But I like to run three board rounds. Because three board rounds, the game moves more smoothly. And the worst thing you can do as a bridge school owner, you have to rush people. Right?

People are playing slowly. The people who are playing slowly don't want to be rushed. So, the people who are waiting for them want them to be, right? So, some of your customers are going to be annoyed no matter what you do. Right? Three board rounds inherently run faster than two board rounds. Which means you don't have to push people as much. Which is good. Because every time you're pushing someone, someone's unhappy. It'd be more than one person.

A lot of times, the person who's waiting and the person who's being pushed are both annoyed at you. One, for you not pushing them enough, one of them, you pushing them too much. So, you want to do things which are external, which make it more enjoyable for them. You want to get the game started on time, because some people want to get out on time. And if you delay starting the game, that's time you can never get back.

You want to be efficient, and get the boards out on time. You want to be efficient and do everything... Do everything to make it a pleasant and enjoyable environment. It's a very different... but you do want to prep what you're doing.

By the way, I don't know. This is something that people wouldn't know about me. When I first started playing bridge, I couldn't talk to people I didn't know. I would go out to dinner with a group of people, I would not say a word for the whole time.

I was so painfully shy. Even in my early 20s, I could hardly talk to anyone I didn't know. I developed not having to do that because I sort of had to for different jobs that I had. I understand people not wanting to do things, not wanting to talk, not wanting to. Now, when I run a bridge club, I try to make sure I remember every person's name. Up to the point where someone...

... every person's name up to the point where if someone comes in, the first few times they come in, I will make them repeat their name to me and every time I see them I will repeat their name back to them. Well, because even if I don't remember it, I want them to know it's important for me to try to remember their name because you want to make an environment where they're welcome. So I really actually do want them to know they're my customer. They're important, so I want to remember who they are.

And I might forget because I'm human, but I try. I think that's important as a bridge club. Even if you have a director or someone else, the person who's the point person, when something goes wrong, they want to be able to talk to you. And if they think you know them, they're going to be more comfortable talking to you. So I try to make sure that I know each one of my customers as best I can.

John McAllister: What's your policy with your clubs about people showing up close to game time?

Aaron Silverstein: My problem. Okay. My job is to make it easy for them. It's not their job to make it easy for me. So if they all show up at the last minute, it's my job to have that 10 minutes of chaos when you're starting the game and making it work.

Sure, it makes it easier for me and if they don't want that chaotic experience, they can get there earlier. If everyone shows up at the last minute, all those people are going to be being thrown into places. And sure, I'm not going to be able to seat it perfectly. And so the people come at the end, they're going to be at the end a few tables. So if they're a bunch of good players that come at the end, they're all going to be next to each other and that's the way it's going to be. But on the other hand, they're my customers. If they feel like they're going to get there at two minutes to game time, I'll find a place for them. That's my job.

John McAllister: So you seed your games, your club games?

Aaron Silverstein: Okay. I loosely seed my club games. What I try to do is I try to... For multiple reasons. One is on average the least less experienced players are lower than the more experienced players. Not totally always true, but on average. And what you want to do is not put all your fast players in a row or slow players in a row. If one side of your game is running really quickly and one side of your game is running really slowly, everyone feels... So I try to spread them out just for the flow of the game and the consistency.

And I will say they're playing in a game. If there's a less experienced player and they have to play four good players in a row, they're not going to be happy. They're going to feel like they're getting beat up. So again, I try to spread people out, which sort of naturally seeds it, but it's not actually because I really care about seeding, if they really care about the experience they're having. So that tends to naturally seed the game.

I spend more time thinking about things. For example, I run different movements. I run a lot of fancy movements because I like the game. I'll run webs because I want to run three board rounds. And if you get over a certain number of tables, if you have 14 or 16 tables, you can't run three board rounds normally. But if you do a web, you can. I said, three board rounds run better. I don't run relay bye stands because I don't always have a second set of boards ready and I don't want people sharing boards. But there are movements with extra bye stands that you can run instead that work the same way.

So my job is to be knowledgeable as a club owner. I've been around bridge a lot, so I've seen all these movements. I'll run anything I want to make it work and be better for them. It's the thing, my job to make it work and to make it easy for them. They don't have to know the movements, I do. They don't have to know the reasons that I'm putting pairs different places. Fast pairs behind slow pairs so that the whole area doesn't get bogged down and get far behind.

John McAllister: I'm sure I know what it is, but I've never heard the term bye stand before. I mean, I'm sure I'm familiar-

Aaron Silverstein: Well,a bye stand, when board sit out between two tables. The normal thing they do, if there are let's say tables, do you want to only run 12 two board rounds? One in 12 will directly share their boards. Now with two playing machines, they normally make an extra set of boards for one of those tables, and between six and seven, the boards sit out. After the boards go to table seven, they sit out from round, then they go to table six. And these are just ways to make it so you don't run into the same board.

But you can actually also do the same thing with two bye stands instead of a relay. Two places where the board sit out instead of a relay. Now that means there are 28 boards in play, not 24. So you don't play all 24 of the boards. But if I was playing in the Life Master Pairs, it would be important that all the boards aren't being played or anything else. If I'm playing in a club game, you're playing 24 out of 28 boards, you're playing all the pairs in the other direction. That's more than fair enough. But why would I create an issue if I don't have a second set of boards by making a relay? Because a relay is another stress point. If two people are sharing boards, they're asking for back and forth, which can distract people and annoy people. Second of all, when they're entering their scores into the Bridgemate, they're not always playing the boards in order. So they enter them wrong and then they see the scores from the other table. All these things which can cause problems for my customers. Why would I not avoid that?

I don't know. I probably spend too much time thinking about things like this.

John McAllister: No, it's fascinating. I mean, it's fascinating to... I know very little about directing and running a game other than having played in them a lot. So it's fascinating to hear from your perspective.

Aaron Silverstein: I always did involve... I had, even before I ran a club, I had an early girlfriend who ran and owned a bridge club. So I was involved in doing these things from fairly early on. So when you start doing it, when I do things, I like to do them right. I've always been someone who tinkers and tries to figure out how things work. It's just who I am, what I've always done. I wasn't the best student in school, but strangely enough, I learned very well because I cared much more about understanding what I was doing than giving my teachers back what they wanted. What I learned later in life is that you have bosses, teachers are like your bosses. They might be right, they might be wrong, but it doesn't matter. If they're in charge and they're going to make the decision about what... And they're going to make a decision like a grade or your salary or promotion or anything else. You want to do your best, but what your best is your best of what they're asking you to do.

Just because you are right in your own mind doesn't help. If you have a good boss or a good teacher, they care about the result, not exactly how you did it. Maybe they want you to do it better, they could teach you a more efficient way, but they're not picky, but they're the arbiter of what's right and what's wrong. You aren't and you have to learn that in life, life isn't fair. But when I was a kid, I just sort of wanted to know how to do it so I wouldn't take notes the way they wanted to. I wouldn't show the work the way they wanted to. I would do it the way I thought was right. And that didn't always go well with some of my teachers.

John McAllister: So do you play in your club games then?

Aaron Silverstein: Occasionally. I don't want to play a lot. I play a little bit of pro. I fill in, by the way, if I'm directing... If I'm the director and I can fill in to make it not a half table, I will always do it with whoever's there. But strangely enough, my preference is to play with the worst player in the game that I can find because no one wants to be winning. People in my club are happy if they win, right?

John McAllister: Yeah, for sure, for sure.

Aaron Silverstein: And especially they're happy if they beat me. So I'd rather make them happy. And I'm not going to try to throw an individual hands, but what's the point of me playing with someone who's good and winning by a bunch? That's not helpful per se. So I don't care who I play with. I just don't care at all. I'll play and I don't give 100% when I'm filling in, especially if I'm directing because my main role as director. I can do fine even with my B game.

John McAllister: Will you squeeze somebody?

Aaron Silverstein: Well, sure, I'll play the hand the right way, but if it takes me more than 15 seconds to think about how I want to play the hand, that's too long. I'll give it a look over. I'll make a plan. I will try to do it. But I started playing bridge in high school, so I started playing bridge in I guess the fall of '82. The first time I played in a duplicate. I really started playing in 83, 84. That's a long time ago. It's been 40 years of bridge. So a lot of these... One of the big events of experience, obviously this is that things you had to work out when you were younger. I just know I've seen the hands before. It happens with them doing the junior training, it's like I can see that the trump squeeze if I know the format of it, I can see these things coming before it happens. I don't have to work out what works.

John McAllister: So do you feel like you have to do anything to get ready? How do you get ready to play in the Nationals then?

Aaron Silverstein: I glance over my notes because one of the things with Andrew that I think is we've done very well is we've only slowly added things over the years. We developed our system to what we thought we wanted and enough agreements, but after that, we've mostly froze it. We make small tinkering. At one point, we changed our puppet from three clubs. It's a little better. We've done small tinkerings here and there, but mostly we're playing the same stuff that we have for the last 10 years. And that's a big advantage because I really know our system cold. I know when he'll be giving suit preferences. I know what his carding means.

John McAllister: Wow, that's impressive.

Aaron Silverstein: It makes it easier to... One of the things I will say, by the way, on this point of view, one of the things that I think that people should do, which not enough people do. If you ask me or Andrew what our carding is, we'll say upside-down count attitude, more suit preference than count because there are parts that are almost all count. And maybe on the WBF card there's a space for what your priority of signals are.

But the ACBL card maybe says something about first signal, second signal. People don't play it that carefully. You don't know what people are playing and what you do with the opponent's lead, that's much more important than whether you're playing upside down or right side up. If I can't figure out whether you're playing upside down or right side up after I've played two or three hands against you, I'm in trouble. It was actually my piece of advice by the way, to some of my juniors. I said, you know what? Sometimes it's better to either look at their card in advance because all the cards are posted, but never ask them what their carding is.

Because it's better if they don't think you're paying too much attention to their carding. Either look at their card in advance or look at their cards or observe, but observe their carding, see what they're doing. Try to see if they're giving two preferences to account. Try to analyze which ones they're doing, but don't ask them a lot of questions about it. Figure it out yourself because then everything they'll do will be honest. If you say, oh, what's your carding? And they think that it's important to you to know, they're going to false card. People aren't idiots, but if you've noticed an advanced artistically, you don't seem like you care, they're going to play honestly against you. And it's worth a lot.

John McAllister: Originally when I started playing with Ethan, we were playing everything with suit preference, like no count. And I found that that was really hard because I don't know, I just didn't know what my second card was. We didn't discuss it very much, but I just felt like I remember playing and thinking, I have no idea what my cards mean now because I already gave suit preference. And it's like, so am I giving more suit preference? And so I actually asked him if we could play count, priority count, but some suit preference situations. So what do you say to that?

Aaron Silverstein: You can play either way. The danger of playing a lot of counts is... My joke is I used to play against a pair at the club who gave count on every card when I was playing a suit. They'd lead something and I would know whether they had even or odd in that suit. So they play one trick in the second suit and one trick in the third suit. At this point, I knew the parity of three of the suits. Now, if I had a nine card fit, I knew if trumps were two, two or three, one, whether they both have odd or they both have even. Right?

So I would never miss guess whether trumps were two, two or three, one. So if people are giving count all the time, and one of the hardest things is to actually be honest about this because if you can't trust your partner's count, your count is useless. But if your opponents can trust every piece of your count, they're going to play very well. But the problem is how do you false card, but be honest about when you false card because how do you... You know when your partner is likely to false card, but tell your opponents also. It's very hard to do this ethically and honestly, very hard.

I actually said something to someone who's actually one of the most honest players in the world. I don't want to say their name because I don't want to sound like an insult to them because I do believe they were trying to be totally honest. But I said, "What's your preference of priority carding?" And this was in the team trials and someone I trust think is a good player, I think is honest. And they said, "We give count attitudes to preference depending on what we think my partner needs." And my answer to that is, "You've played together for a long time. You know what your partner's giving in these situations. You can't be playing where you don't know 98% what your partner's doing in these situations. So this answer is you are going to give count attitudes to preference and you are not going to tell me, right?" Because-

John McAllister: You think that's the correct answer.

Aaron Silverstein: Because how am I going to... You know 98% of the time, otherwise you can't defend. But you're not telling me, so how am I going to figure out what your card is? I haven't played 20 years with this person. I don't know in this situation, they'll give count in this situation. They'll give to preference.

John McAllister: Are you entitled to know that though? Do you think you're entitled to know that?

Aaron Silverstein: I'm entitled to know what they know. It's not general bridge knowledge, whether it's count attitude or suit preference. Is it? You're allowed to know their agreements. And that includes by common partnership experience, specifically in the law. It says by agreement or common partnership agreement or common partnership experience. So it's not even an ACBL regulation. WBF, it's specifically in the law.

John McAllister: Wow.

Aaron Silverstein: I'm definitely in -

John McAllister: So what happened?

Aaron Silverstein: Nothing. I didn't want to have a fight over it. But the fact is, it's a real problem with defensive carding is that if you're going to allow people to theoretically supposed to know, then what are they supposed to do? It's very hard to disclose that stuff.

John McAllister: I have one last question for you, and it is, did you kill Tupac?

Aaron Silverstein: So you got that from Ethan, huh? I don't know how Avery got this story into the junior group. But it happened to be that I was at a Vegas bridge tournament. I think it was a bridge tournament. I think it was a Vegas regional. And we decided to go. I went to the MGM Grand, which happened to be where the Holyfield Tyson fight was at that same day. So we were in there and we come out of the show and they won't let us out of the casino. The whole casino is shut down. You're not allowed to leave. They're police everywhere. And what it worked out as well as being the Holyfield Tyson fight where he bit his ear off. But Tupac Shakur was shot outside that fight and killed. That's where he was killed. So it was one of the weirdest experience. You don't know what's going on. First, everyone's going crazy because it was the [inaudible 01:32:09].

John McAllister: Well, thanks for staying up with me. Well, you were great. Thanks so much and I will be in touch when we publish this and I look forward to seeing you in Toronto.

I hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did. It would not have been as complete if not for the help of Avery Silverstein, Ethan Derman, and Chris Willenken who all generously shared ideas and stories for potential questions about their friend and dad, and mentor, Aaron, here to hear your questions, complaints, and compliments either over email or at the bridge table. If you want to help support the show, please consider sharing this episode with one of your favorite bridge partners.