EPISODE 40: Jacek Kalita
Ever since my conversation with Jeff Meckstroth, I began asking a standard question to Setting Trick guests, “are you better than (Jacek) Kalita?” It was a fun or tough question, depending on the guest, which got a wide variety of responses in spite of Jacek being ranked 2nd in the World Bridge Federation’s rankings.
Hailing from Poland, Jacek is our first European based guest. Astute listeners will have noticed that I stopped asking the are you better than question when Jacek’s partner Michal Nowosadzki confessed to self-kibitizing in multiple online events last year. The partner with whom Jacek won two Bermuda Bowls and also his good friend.
Find out what Jacek had to say about all of that and see his fine sense of humor for yourself.
Episode Highlights:
3:58- Are you better than Kalita???
6:35- Michal Nowosadzki (Kalita’s partner) cheating case
10:04- The aftermath reaction
15:00- Kalita’s pathway to becoming a professional
23:35- When a frequent opponent becomes a partner
27:40- For the system nuts
31:50- Why Kalita is pro-kibitzing
36:20- The secret sauce behind Kalita and Nowosadzki constant success
41:00- Bridge and traveling the world
44:20- When Kalita got to play with his childhood bridge heroes
46:15- Kalita’s former client helped create the stock market in Poland!
50:28- Kalita’s family and bridge
53:35- Michal Klukowski and Kalita
Transcript:
JOHN MCALLISTER: Here we are. Jacek Kalita, the number two player in the world. Two-time world champion, multiple NABC winner. Our first guest who is appearing from the continent of Europe. Welcome to The Setting Trick.
JACEK KALITA: Hi, John. Pleasure to be here. Very excited about the whole thing.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Even after it took you 25 minutes to get logged on, you’re still excited?
JACEK KALITA: Yeah, I’ve never been a master of computers, so I’m happy it was only 25 minutes, so.
JOHN MCALLISTER: [Laughter]
JACEK KALITA: Not so bad, actually. It’s even worse.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Thank you. It is a pleasure. I didn’t realize you were the number two player in the world until we started researching the show. So, congratulations. That’s a huge honor.
JACEK KALITA: I can imagine, then, that after seeing it play, it’s got to be about number 20, but apparently something is wrong with the ranking, so they probably need to work on it a bit.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Is your goal to eventually get the top spot?
JACEK KALITA: Of course, it would be nice to be number one, but I don’t think that’s the most important thing to achieve. That’s not really on the top list of my goals.
JOHN MCALLISTER: How did you follow that progression? How often do you check the rankings, or did somebody tell you you were number two in the world? Where did you come from to – what were you the last time, before you were number two?
JACEK KALITA: I wasn’t following it to know that close. Kluk is a big fan of all the statistics, rankings, everything that is connected to bridge, so I think he was there when it was [0:01:48.6], so he told me directly, “Ah, you are number two, and this is number one.” He did all the calculations --
JOHN MCALLISTER: Wow. So Kluk is Michael Klukowski.
JACEK KALITA: Yeah, yeah, I meant – yeah, that’s his nickname. He’s got some other nicknames, but he doesn’t like them very much, so I stick with Kluk. [Laughter]
JOHN MCALLISTER: What were you going to say there before I interrupted you there about Klukowski?
JACEK KALITA: I was going to say that this ranking focused on the international performance only, which is probably not entirely correct because obviously, NABCs are among the most important competitions, and they are not included at all in the ranking. Also, I think Europeans, which is also very tough competitions, like there is very little there. It’s mostly about Bermuda Bowls, Transnationals, and stuff like this. So, I’ve been quite successful in this one, so I think that’s why I’m so high there.
JOHN MCALLISTER: I was hoping that I was going to have this conversation with you in person, that I was going to run into you at an NABC, and you were going to be like, “What’s this thing about asking who’s better than Kalita?” Because we’ve had this thing on the show. It started when I was talking to Jeff Meckstroth, and I asked Jeff Meckstroth who was better than he was, and he said that he was tired to losing to you guys. And I said, “Oh, is he better than you are?” And he goes, “I don’t know about that.”
JACEK KALITA: Yeah, I don’t think so. [Laughter]
JOHN MCALLISTER: [Laughter] So then, it became our first stock question that I would ask everybody. And I asked Steve Weinstein. Anyway, it’s a testament. I wouldn’t do this with just any person. It’s a testament to, A, you’re very good as evidenced by the world ranking, and B, you have a great sense of humor. I knew that you would take it in the right way.
JACEK KALITA: Absolutely, yeah. And I like the answers that people gave. They’re – most of them were very complimentary in that. I also like honest responses like the one that Geoff Hampson said. “Well, yes, I think so.” [Laughter]
JOHN MCALLISTER: [Laughter]
JACEK KALITA: I definitely like him very much.
JOHN MCALLISTER: How did you first hear about this question was being asked?
JACEK KALITA: I was listening to your podcast and maybe not listening, but mostly reading, so I found out at that time. Very often in Bridge Winners, I might try to follow it. Being nice to Steve Weinstein – [0:04:40.7] or whatever. [Laughter]
JOHN MCALLISTER: [Laughter] And what was your reaction to finding out that this was becoming a routine question?
JACEK KALITA: It’s funny, nice, and also good to know what people think about you, right? Every [0:05:01.3] good, so. It was a lot of fun.
JOHN MCALLISTER: On a more serious note, and the way we edit the show is that we will cut something out if you don’t want to answer it.
JACEK KALITA: I think it’s rather you who should do the cutting because I’m a very open person and don’t really have anything to hide.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Right.
JACEK KALITA: I’m not embarrassed to discuss difficult topics.
JOHN MCALLISTER: OK. So, I stopped asking the question because of Michael, your partner – the partner you’ve won both Bermuda Bowl with – because of Michael admitting to self-kibitzing on Bridge Base. Because I was like, you know what? I don’t want to ask anymore. But here we are, and what was it like for you? Did you ask him before you found out?
JACEK KALITA: Actually, I did. There was a case with one hand that, better for being brought up. He posted it on Bridge Winners and basically accused Michael of cheating. He wasn’t complete – I mean, he was right in principle. He wasn’t completely right because he didn’t know our methods, which was quite important in this case.
But still, irrelevant of the methods we use, it was very weird because I know our style, and I couldn’t remember of a hand that with this kind of hand, he wouldn’t be three notrump. So, after this kind, I asked him a few times if he knew the hand because I wanted to defend him also. Michael is not really the guy who likes to talk. So, I told him that I’m happy to defend you, but I need to be 100% sure you’re absolutely clean. Then, I kept asking a few times and he said, “No, no, I didn’t do anything. That was a guess, a right guess.”
JOHN MCALLISTER: For our listeners, what can you tell us about the hand that was unusual about what Michael chose to do?
JACEK KALITA: So, his hand was – I don’t remember correctly maybe all the spots, but diamonds and he was, like, fourth of hearts. He was fourth of clubs. So, I opened two notrump. He beat three clubs, which he had to, basically. I responded three spades, which showed five spades. Then, we played modified [0:07:22.1] diamond. And now, he had a choice to either to be three notrump or to beat four spades. And as I told you, I couldn’t recall the hand that we don’t beat three notrump with four trick of three. So, that was really weird.
Also, obviously, the real hand – four spades was making [Kisi] a hand against three no. Guy had a five-card suit on the lead, which then cashed directly. Oh yeah, I kept asking – he said this time, he had [0:07:54.6] three diamonds, three hearts. So, but you know Michael, right? He would be the last person you’d expect to do that. So, it was me, I played with him for eight years. He’s like a brother to me. We spent millions of hours together, and he’s – I mean, he was maybe more correct. Like, most honest person I’ve ever met. And I’d rather expect myself to do that than him. It was a real shock. So, I gave him a lot of credit, for sure, before I found out what’s going on.
JOHN MCALLISTER: And so, how did you find out?
JACEK KALITA: I’m not sure if, you know, people who are involved in this case would like to know. So, we can discuss maybe off the records. You can have some guesses who was behind it, but I’m not sure if I’m allowed to reveal all the details.
JOHN MCALLISTER: OK. What was it like when you found out – not necessarily instantly, but when I thought of you being in the situation, I thought, I wonder if Jacek is – I can see you thinking, I can’t believe he would do that to me. This is bad for my reputation as his long-time partner.
Did you – and I think I’ve seen you guys playing together online since he got reinstated. Did you stop talking to him? Did you think about not playing with him again? How was that – what was that –
JACEK KALITA: I think the thing that happened the most was that he didn’t tell me the truth and that he lied to me. I understand his motives, understand – maybe that’s not the right word. So, if my expressions are not 100% accurate, it’s alright to correct me. But I’ll forgive him if he will admit to me and said, “OK, I did it. I was an idiot.” Whatever. I think I wouldn’t consider problems with that. The thing that touched me most was that he didn’t tell me the truth, and I found from another source.
Now, the thing was that when I approached him a week later – when I knew more, let’s say, about the whole thing – then, he admitted directly, and then he said he will try to fix it as soon as possible. And then, I guess he spent the whole writing his confession and then next day, he published it, yeah. So that [0:10:33.2] better. And he was probably aware that for a while, I was a member of CAT, so I had an idea about this scale of this. And many people who I never expect to do it were my good friends. And it was also a bit of a shock, but it kind of made me prepare to what happened with Michael, even though it was still super shocking then. I started to understand the whole phenomenon of this.
JOHN MCALLISTER: What did you think of Michael’s confession? Do you think he owned it, or were you proud of him when you read it? Or did you feel like there was more work to be done?
JACEK KALITA: I think very little has been changed from the original version. English has been polished a little. And I think it was very accurate. I was, like many people were, making fun of him that it’s like baby, dog, and everyone has a baby, and everybody has a dog, whatever. But I think I’m not sure if I should say so in public, but I think that his main motive was being lazy. I think he didn’t mean to cheat, he just liked to lie on his bed, you know, and just whatever. Maybe do other things.
And I think that was the problem with most of the players. The internet has been used just to practice friendly matches, more like fun, and suddenly he became serious and kind of real bridge, and many people didn’t realize it. And I think the whole thing wasn’t handled correctly because I think that first, you set the rules and then, you punish people. And here, you didn’t have any rules, and then you wanted to punish people, which I don’t think is completely right.
When I was a member of CAT, my idea was rather to make people come clean instead of punishing them because my vision of the whole thing is that they are not really realizing what they are doing. And you should be done to make them remember what they are doing.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Yeah, that was kind of Thomas Bessis argument, as I recall reading on Bridge Winners. And first of all, I appreciate your honesty in answering the question, and I’m glad I asked because it was definitely one of the first things I thought about.
JACEK KALITA: I’m happy. I’m very happy Michael came clean, and I think it was very honest and then, I think he will never, ever make any mistake like this again.
JOHN MCALLISTER: It’s been surprising to me that more people haven’t taken the route that he took. But anyway, moving on – unless, of course, there’s more you want to say about this.
JACEK KALITA: I think we’re done with it. You can imagine it’s not really – I understand that it’s an important topic, but it’s not something I love to discuss, so I’m happy to move on.
JOHN MCALLISTER: So, you learned bridge, and you grew up in a bridge-playing family.
JACEK KALITA: Yeah.
JOHN MCALLISTER: And you’re a two-time world champion. Did you foresee that for yourself?
JACEK KALITA: No, not at all. It’s pure coincidence. You know, in Poland, the professional mark doesn’t exist almost at all. I have a few minor sponsors, but it’s really, really hard to make a living playing bridge. So, when I started to play more seriously was in high school. We had many junior competitions. I played quite a lot. We did well most of the time. I enjoyed it very much. It was a lot of fun.
And then, when I was about to finish my university, we got invited to U.S.A. We started to make some money. So, at that time, I didn’t think about finding a job. I thought, let’s check it out. And that’s how it went.
JOHN MCALLISTER: What was the event in the U.S. that you got invited to, and how did you make – how did the money work?
JACEK KALITA: I think we were quite successful in the juniors competitions. Apparently, people could see. And I think the first time that we came to the States was the [0:15:26.9] –
JOHN MCALLISTER: Oh, so you got hired to come to the States.
JACEK KALITA: Yeah.
JOHN MCALLISTER: After doing well in –
JACEK KALITA: We – yeah, yeah. We didn’t get paid a lot. Just, you know, expenses and some extra money. But we played on the team with Connie Goldeberg and Billy Eisenberg. It was something special to play on the team with Billy, and he was very nice to us. We did OK, but we lost in the round of 32 to, I think, Cayne’s team, including Fantoni-Nunes. And he complimented us a lot. He said, “Guys, you’re really capable of playing well and just need to work on it and get some experience.” And then –
JOHN MCALLISTER: You mean somebody else. Billy –
JACEK KALITA: No, no, no. Billy Eisenburg.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Yeah, Billy. Hall of Famer, legendary. Yeah. Member of the Aces Billy Eisenburg.
JACEK KALITA: So then, next couple of tournaments, we played, we met our old friend. He wasn’t really a friend of mine because I’d never met him, and when he [0:16:31.6] Poland. Waldemar Frukacz, another character from Poland. I don’t know if you –
JOHN MCALLISTER: No, I don’t – will you say his name again?
JACEK KALITA: Waldemar Frukacz.
JOHN MCALLISTER: No, I don’t –
JACEK KALITA: He stopped playing quite a while – I think sometime before you started playing. But he was one of a kind. He was a Polish guy who moved to Canada a long time ago. He was a very good player, but he got another job, so he didn’t play professionally. And he was playing with rich Canadian guy, Ron Zambonini. Unfortunately, he died a couple of years ago. He was a very, very nice person. So, he was a sponsor of the team. They played together in Canada. So, when he found out Polish guy’s unavailable, he made it work.
And I think we’ve got the biggest pay raise from one tournament to another because first tournament we played with him, we got very little. Most expenses and something extra, but not much. And then, we finished, it was the [Reisinger 0:17:46.6], the full Nationals. We didn’t play the Reisinger. We played the North American Championship – the swiss at the same time. And we played four-handed. We finished second. Yeah, Ron said, “Guys, you deserve much more than this.” And he gave us five times more than we got the first time. So, it was very nice of him and also helpful for us financially.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Your partner – was this Krzysztof Kotorowicz –
JACEK KALITA: Yeah, Krzysztof Kotorowicz, yeah. We played together for a long time. The whole juniors times, I played with him. He was a great partner. We get along pretty well.
Also, I started to be successful in the open series between the second and Europeans. But then, it was before Bermuda Bowl in Veldhoven, he decided to quit. He said his wife can’t stand all his traveling and miss him too much and would rather have him find a normal job.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Wow.
JACEK KALITA: So, he decided – yeah. No, she’s very nice. I like her a lot, too.
JOHN MCALLISTER: [Laughter]
JACEK KALITA: You know, I think the most important thing in life is to be happy, so.
JOHN MCALLISTER: So, you said Nashville. I’m thinking that was probably in 2008? And you lost to the Cayne team? Because I think Jimmy was in Nashville when Bear Stearns went under. Do you remember that?
JACEK KALITA: Was it Detroit? I think it was Detroit.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Oh, really?
JACEK KALITA: And I think it was later, like 2009, maybe? 2010?
JOHN MCALLISTER: Well, no. It was 2008 or earlier because the financial crisis was 2008. But it might have been –
JACEK KALITA: OK, so maybe Nashville was earlier. I don’t know if you check it out. Maybe Nashville was 2007.
JOHN MCALLISTER: It could’ve been because Bear Stearns – anyway. You don’t remember that story.
JACEK KALITA: I remember the story, but I think it happened during the Detroit Nationals, when Bear Stearns was collapsing, and Jimmy was playing a bridge tournament. Many people didn’t like it. I could read [0:20:01.2]. But I think you should probably – easier for you to check it out.
JOHN MCALLISTER: OK, I won’t belabor it.
JACEK KALITA: Yeah, I’m pretty sure it’s Detroit.
JOHN MCALLISTER: This is the CEO of Bear Stearns, to the listeners who don’t know who we’re talking about. His name is Jimmy Cayne], and that’s the person who eliminated Jacek in the – I guess it was spring, so it was the Vanderbilt. Was it Billy who reached out, or Connie? Do you remember who? And was Pepsi involved in brokering that first hiring?
JACEK KALITA: Ah, as far as I recall, it was [0:20:30.1]. So, another kind of embarrassing thing to discuss.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Gotcha, OK. Alright.
JACEK KALITA: Yeah, this would not be seen very well by people, but I have to say I [0:20:52.0], and since everything was revealed, he was a good friend of mine. He was a mentor. And, yeah, he tried to help us out on a number of occasions, so it was also especially sad what happened.
JOHN MCALLISTER: This is another – this is a – Adam Żmudziński played with – he was on the team for the Bermuda Bowl for 2015.
JACEK KALITA: Yeah, that’s another embarrassing topic to discuss, like our semi-win. But I’m happy I don’t really have anything to hide. I’m also happy to discuss it if you want.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Got it. I wasn’t planning on asking you about that.
JACEK KALITA: OK. [Laughter]
JOHN MCALLISTER: [Laughter] I had forgotten about it, actually. Yeah, but I don’t know…has that ruined your relationship, or are you still friends, or…?
JACEK KALITA: Ah, definitely, it didn’t help. You know? We spoke a few times, but you know, obviously, it went – the whole thing, and yeah, we never – we just discussed, yeah, some side topics. We never discuss bridge anymore.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Are you – I know you’ve said you read some of the transcripts. Are you annoyed that this is the first time that I’ve started asking hard questions on this show to people? [Laughter]
JACEK KALITA: Hmm, no, no. I think you are not trying to ask all the questions you want. So, I expect it, you know. And when I thought about it, you know, I went through many, many embarrassing situations recently.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Let’s talk about Steve Weinstein. You played the Blue Ribbon Pairs, I think, with him in Denver. Tell us about that.
JACEK KALITA: What can I say? He’s a bright bridge player. It was a lot of fun. Since then, I started to know who is the best player in the world. It must be Bobby by, you know…like, hundreds of miles, because it’s just impossible. This guy wants so much.
JOHN MCALLISTER: [Laughter]
JACEK KALITA: But I like him and, you know…
JOHN MCALLISTER: [Laughter]
JACEK KALITA: No, seriously. Seriously. I don’t know how to explain, but it was really tough to me to adopt a [0:23:28.0] style of bidding and carding. To be honest, I had no idea what’s going on. I read the notes. I thought I understand it. But then, everything could go wrong went wrong. Also, the carding…we played upside down attitude standup count, I believe. So I never knew when I should give count, when I should give attitude. That was my performing.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Wait, maybe it was the Platinum Pairs. Was it the Platinum Pairs in Reno?
JACEK KALITA: Actaully, we played two tournaments. We played…hmm, not sure we played Platinum. Oh, we could play Platinum Pairs, actually. I think we played twice and made it to the finals, which was a huge achievement, considering how we play. But that didn’t do very well. I think it was Blue Ribbon and then Platinum Pairs that was two tournaments we played together. And I’m looking forward for our next event. Not sure if he wants to do that ever again, but –
JOHN MCALLISTER: Steve is famous for wanting to play flânerie. How did that discussion go?
JACEK KALITA: Ah, that was – you can imagine there was no discussion. That was just a – he made a statement, and I had to learn how to play it. It was very weird for me, also, that the way they play, it’s like you find out about the shape and then, you bid key card. I don’t understand this method. Like, how can you – you have a lot of spades to ask about partner’s hand, give some intentions that you want to be in slam. I did not. Whatever. But the only options were key cards.
So, one of my favorite Norwegian pairs once say that they played one club, one spade, two spades, two notrump key card. So, I really like this convention. You know, if you can stop low, you should not have aces. Aces are not always everything, I would say. But actually, Stevie was happy because every time Flannery came out, we got to talk directly. So, that was the rare good results when we used Flannery, so he was very happy.
JOHN MCALLISTER: By the way, Bobby Levin is Steve Weinstein’s regular partner, for listeners, who Jacek was saying must be the best player in the world. I wonder if maybe if Bobby and Stevie play, if he gave you the crib note version, like the short version of the –
JACEK KALITA: I don’t think so. I think they play quite similar. They understand the spirit of it even better than me. But I think, you know, it’s a matter of style. I’m used to different approach when it comes to slam bidding.
JOHN MCALLISTER: I remember playing against you and Michael in the downstairs, in the penalty basement, in Washington. So, this was a summer national, I think – normally, you want to be playing upstairs in the main event, which would have been the Spin Gold. But we were playing against you in some side event. I think it was even a one-day swiss. And you guys played – you opened either two diamonds or two hearts, showed a weak hand with both majors. Do you still play that?
JACEK KALITA: No, we play – it’s like Polish-type twos, which are a bit different than the Dutch twos. They are both two-suiters, like two hearts and two spades are two-suited opening, but Polish version includes both majors in two-hearts opening. So, when you open two hearts, we promise hearts, and we may have another. So, I’m not sure if it’s good or not what we had in our blood, and we always play like this, so we didn’t change it.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Yeah, that was going to be my question: what are the advantages? I think maybe we got a good result against you when you opened maybe two hearts, but –
JACEK KALITA: Yeah, the upside is that you open more often right, that you preempt opponents. The downside is that sometimes it’s difficult to find a spade fit when they enter the auction and you don’t have good enough to take some action. And then, it happened a few times. Also, you have to guess what’s your partner’s suit, so it happened that we missed five-five spade fit.
JOHN MCALLISTER: How many hearts do you promise?
JACEK KALITA: No, no. When we open two hearts, we are guarding five hearts. And when it’s spades, as in other suit, we have to have five spades also. When you have a [0:28:11.6] and sometimes we open with five-four, we do lead more aggressively.
JOHN MCALLISTER: And two spades openings can have hearts as well?
JACEK KALITA: No, no. When we open two hearts with the spades, then it makes no sense that two spades can be –
JOHN MCALLISTER: What about five spades and four hearts?
JACEK KALITA: No, we don’t open with five-four. We will just pass.
JOHN MCALLISTER: I mean, mainly, I was just curious, and I think you already answered the question. It’s in your blood. That’s not something you’re particularly – it’s not a treatment.
JACEK KALITA: Yeah, it’s like bidding low from a double though, right? Like in Poland, everybody’s bidding low from a double [0:28:47.4], so we didn’t really think it is good or not. I think it’s pretty much [inaudible] that sometimes, you get leading standard. Sometimes, you are more leading the Polish style. Like when a partner is denied, you pretty much know. It’s a singleton when he leads duels with standard. It’s a singleton here, we don’t know. But as I said, I don’t think it’s that important.
JOHN MCALLISTER: I think that’s an interesting sort of general response to my original question, and also to the benefits. Because I think bridge, there’s a lot of situations where sometimes it’s better, you know, because we know the deuce is a singleton. But in reality, each one has their advantages in certain situations. So, I’m getting the impression that you’re – what’s something that you play that you think is really good? Anything come to mind? You like Blackwood.
JACEK KALITA: Generally, I’ve read – I don’t know where it was. When they have [0:29:48.1] of what percentage of your bridge to win – is it to have good bidding system? He said the bidding system’s around 5% of the whole abilities that are required to win, and the rest is card play and understanding of your partner, the common way of thinking, the other things. And I completely agree with that. Helgemo/Helness, their system is really basic, but they are still able to reach good contracts most of the time, and they’re on the same wavelength, and that’s more important than all the conventions. That’s how I see bridge.
JOHN MCALLISTER: And Helness is the number one player in the world, so.
JACEK KALITA: Yeah. They’re great players. I enjoy watching them a lot. I like their spider. Absolutely not for really young players.
JOHN MCALLISTER: You told me you were playing in an event. Today is Monday, July 12.
JACEK KALITA: Yeah.
JOHN MCALLISTER: What event is that?
JACEK KALITA: We are playing the ACBL event. It’s one of the World Bridge Tour family events. I have to say I started to like it. At the beginning, I didn’t like internet bridge so much. Now, I enjoy it more. I think it’s much more cleaner than it used to be. It’s also very important.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Do you have a favorite? Can you tell the difference between an Alt event versus ACBL event? Or do you think anyone in particular has stood out to you as the best run, or –
JACEK KALITA: They are both run very well. I think that the disagreement between them was if kibitzers would be allowed or not. And I was in favor of – I think everybody, in the end, was kind of more trustful. There is this tour, which is run by Boye Brogeland. I had the position that kibitzers is better. I think it seems to me they changed their view a little because more and more, these events are also open for [key readers], which I think I like because, I mean, of course it’s a good way to make some money, but it’s not that important, I would say. It’s not that much we normally make. And also, a very good way to practice, but I think the best thing about internet bridge is that everybody can watch it, that people can actually find it.
Some random people on BBO write to me and say, “Ah, that was a preempt play,” whatever. It’s nice to see that people really enjoy bridge and enjoy watching it, and I think that’s the future – if we don’t encourage people to play, bridge will die most likely. So, of course, I think a better idea would be a delayed viewgraph. It’s organized with the poker events. But I can imagine – at least for me, it seems very complicated to make a delayed viewgraph. But I think it should be done because it doesn’t take away all the fun because people don’t even have to know the deal is like and could still watch and enjoy. And this deal graph that is this streaming thing that they organize during ABCs, it’s not that great because you can see the cards that were played and items like –
JOHN MCALLISTER: I think I know the answer to this question, based on how you talk about yourself as being somewhat of a computer-phobe. Now that we can see bid-for-bid, card-for-card, hasn’t it changed how you evaluate yourself or prepare for opponents?
JACEK KALITA: I don’t think I, you know, analyze that carefully, how people play. I’m rather focusing on my own play. I’m able to operate video. I know how to GIB, so usually, I go through all the hands I played and try to see if I could make a contract I [inaudible], or I mis-defended. I try to do that.
JOHN MCALLISTER: So, that’s different. You don’t have that – maybe you don’t have that as available in live bridge. The fact that you can GIB – in case there is any listener who doesn’t know what GIB is, can you explain what GIB is?
JACEK KALITA: Gibb is the computer program that is analyzing a hand with open cards, and it’s showing the optimal moves. And it’s showing how every card play influences the number of tricks at the end of the hand. So, you can tell it at each moment how the card you can play will work at the end of the hand.
JOHN MCALLISTER: How many times, approximately, do you think you’ve been stunned that you can make a contract through going through the hands you played where you’re like, you thought it was unmakeable, and you clicked on the GIB, and it’s like you could make it? How often do you think that happens?
JACEK KALITA: Ah, it happened a few times. I think it’s really interesting to see – sometimes, the winning line is so unreal that it really wouldn’t occur to me. I would never find it out without using – and also, there are some funny things about it. The funny thing is how often all the cards – like no matter which card you play, it will lead to the same outcome at the end. You can play something that looks completely ridiculous on the first side, but then at the end, it doesn’t make any change. So, that’s something most interesting to see.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Regardless of what the merit of the world rankings are, you’ve won major events, the U.S. World Championships. Why are you winning these events?
JACEK KALITA: I think we have some features that enable us to do well in important competitions because you can tell that our bridge is not something that good.
JOHN MCALLISTER: I am not saying that, by the way. You’re the one saying that.
JACEK KALITA: But I think we don’t care. We don’t care about money that is involved. We don’t care about stake, about prestige. We just – we’re playing our own game and don’t change it, regardless of the conditions. And I think that’s very important.
I think we are able to focus on the important moments. We are able to pretty much play a similar way for a long time. We don’t get tired easily. We can play day after day in pretty much the same fashion.
I think we get along. I hope Michael can say the same thing because I can be a tough partner sometimes. He’s super nice always, no matter how it’s going. He’s always happy, and I am not like this, unfortunately. But I think we are good friends. We like each other, which wasn’t – especially, I don’t know how it looks in the U.S. but I think in Poland, that wasn’t the case. Many really successful pairs broke up because they just couldn’t stand each other.
JOHN MCALLISTER: What are you like when you’re mean to Michael, when you’re a bad partner?
JACEK KALITA: He would have to make – you’d have to show me some hands of him that I could…I’m generally a nice guy, but sometimes I could be emotional, lose my temper.
JOHN MCALLISTER: When I first met you, you were playing with an American woman named Jessica Piasecki.
JACEK KALITA: Yeah, that was a great time. We are still very good friends, and we try to see each other when it’s possible, and we talk quite regularly through Facebook. It was an interesting time. But at the end, I found out that playing with a woman is not really something for me, so we ended our partnership. But I enjoyed it a lot, and it was a really interesting time of my life we had together.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Would you say that the biggest win in your – I would argue that winning the Spin Gold four-handed in 2013 was probably the biggest win for you because it really established you as –
JACEK KALITA: Yeah, that was a huge step forward, for sure. Of course, we were under-seeded because we were seeded 39th. We were already decent players at that time but didn’t have that many performances on NABC. But I would say we were a team that I wouldn’t like to draw in the early stages. But of course, still, it was a huge prize that we did so well and a great pleasure to beat all the [0:38:42.2] in the world for the first time.
JOHN MCALLISTER: How did you describe it to people in Poland, like the Spingold, the prestige that went with that?
JACEK KALITA: I think people understand how it works, that people [0:38:56.5] to bridge, they know that it’s pretty much the same level as the World Championships but even tougher because you have many good teams from one country. Like in Poland, you can have a few good teams just from Poland. You can have lots of good teams from the U.S. and also other countries, so it makes it a tougher event to win, for sure.
JOHN MCALLISTER: What about friends of yours that don’t know bridge? What do you tell them when you win – let’s see, you won the Reisinger in 2018. Do you tell them –
JACEK KALITA: I don’t know if it’s a good comparison, but I compare it to grand slam titles in tennis, that the American championships is the same prestige as the biggest events in another sport.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Are you well-known in the city in Poland, where you live, for your bridge playing?
JACEK KALITA: I’m well-known among the bridge society, but not some random people who approaches me at the street and say, “Oh, you are Jacek Kalita.” No, that doesn’t work. Unfortunate.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Does Michael live in the same city as you do?
JACEK KALITA: No, because I live in Warsaw, which is the capitol city of Poland. He lived in Warsaw for a few months during the time that we played together. He lives in Bratislava, which is a city of the next – I think Rosenblum 2022, or the open series, whatever we call it. And now, he moved to [Dynski], which is for sure one of the nicest Polish cities. It’s on the seaside, so he lives a five-minute walk from the sea. He has a very nice house. I visit him. So, he has a very nice place to live there.
JOHN MCALLISTER: I’ve never been to Poland.
JACEK KALITA: You’re welcome to come. We hope to see you. Like I told you, we are organizing next year open series, like the World Open Pairs, I think. So, you should come.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Alright. I’ve been invited by the great one.
JACEK KALITA: I think you should enjoy – Rostislav is a nice city. Many good restaurants, nice nightlife.
JOHN MCALLISTER: I maintain that bridge is a great way to see the world because we get to go to – here it is, I got a chance to go to Poland. I’m going to see a bunch of my friends there. I’m going to get to play against the best players in the world in a bridge tournament and get to experience the Polish culture. I just think it’s a great way to travel.
JACEK KALITA: Yeah, that’s true. That’s what I enjoyed when – already, in junior times, we were not making money. I saw most of the world. I’ve been to all the five continents through bridge and made a lot of friendships, and that was something special. I miss it.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Who are you playing with? Do you have a deal for Austin?
JACEK KALITA: Yeah, we have a new team. Unfortunately, the sponsor of our old team and great person, very good friend of mine, Mr. Blass, passed away last year. It was something really tough for all of us. He was really someone special to us. So, he’ll be missed. But we had to move on, and we got an offer from Sylvia Moss, and we happily accepted it. And we hope that we will do as well as we did with our old team.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Is it different? You’re playing – on Joseph’s team, you guys had you and Michael, and Sjoert and Bas who, in the conversation, is one of the best pairs in the world as well. And then, you had Pepsi playing with Joseph and sometimes playing with you guys. What was it like being on a team like that?
JACEK KALITA: It was something special. Like, you asked, how did it happen that we started to play better, that we became successful. I think one of the most important things was that playing with Joseph, we were able to play with the best person in the world on the team, and we could learn from them. We could take what was their best. We played many regionals with Jeff Meckstroth and Eric Rodwell, and we could learn a lot from them. That was an amazing experience.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Wow, that’s a regional team right there. You guys and Meck – Joseph was playing with Pepsi?
JACEK KALITA: Yes, yes. Yeah, if only most of the time, yeah. So, yeah, Bas & Sjoert were teammates, great players. We could learn from them as well. But yeah, I think what I told to Joseph is that made us good players, like if you play with good players, you learn from them. Every hand is something that can make you play better.
JOHN MCALLISTER: I really appreciate that here you are, two-time Bermuda Bowl champion, seven – it says seven NABCs, maybe one more – that this is your attitude, that the great thing about being on a team with these guys where you’re winning these titles is that you can learn from them. I think that’s really cool.
JACEK KALITA: You know, for me, it was something really special because from a very young age, I liked to read bridge books, bridge magazines. So, they were childhood heroes for me and then suddenly, I could play on a team with them. Listening to Jeff Meckstroth saying, like, “Good job, guys!” Something to remember forever.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Was there a little bit of star struckness at all, then, based on that, like when you first played an event with Meckwell. Do you remember doing anything or making any really silly errors that –
JACEK KALITA: Not really. I think we got along pretty well from the very beginning. Actually, the first tournament that we played together was we won something grand slam, which was really all the events throughout the whole week. Which, even if you have a good team, it’s not so easy because these tournaments are short, and it’s very easy to be knocked out. But we won them all, so you can imagine that everyone was happy.
JOHN MCALLISTER: George Mittelman told me that – he’s a former partner of mine, a great Canadian player – told me that Joseph helped invent the stock market in Poland. Is that –
JACEK KALITA: Invented the stock market?
JOHN MCALLISTER: In Poland. Yeah, like he helped create the Polish stock market?
JACEK KALITA: Yeah, that’s possible because the Polish stock market was set up in the early 90’s, after the Communists collapsed in 1989. Joseph was involved in the sort of [guiding movement] which was – unfortunately, it was the worker’s union fighting for their rights, but eventually it was an organization which destroyed the Communism in Poland. He was helping it financially, and also with his contacts and other stuff. So, I don’t know the details, but definitely it could be true. Joseph was, I would say, very important figure in the life of Polish upper class, I would say. His high school class includes, I think, one Prime Minister, one Minister of Defense, many important people.
And he also had friends everywhere. I don’t know how – he was a super nice guy to many people. Justifies, but he had friends everywhere, and then was a very clever guy. Knew a lot about many things, like history. And also, he was – first of all, he was professor of mathematics. He was an expert in the planning of the pension funds, like retirement funds. I think most of his money he made by writing a mathematic formula that was used in investments in the financial market – that was very successful.
And yeah, he was like a super hard-working guy. Like, when we’d come to a regional, he would get up at 7:00 in the morning and start making some businesses when we were sleeping. Whether you woke up, you were heading out with some high-tech stuff, like sending emails, because he was – you said I was a computer-phobe, he was [0:47:30.0], I came to that. So, he could be helpful. But, yeah. We miss him. We miss him very much.
JOHN MCALLISTER: I don’t remember if you guys were there, but I joined him for breakfast in Toronto at the NABC in 2017, and he told – this was like, right when he was starting to play with you guys in the [Shortenbas]. And he told me that before the tournament, he had some trading strategy that he would do, that he would go out and make money in the stock market so that he could pay you guys to play in the tournament. [Laughter]
JACEK KALITA: Yeah, that’s what he was saying. He has to work, too.
JOHN MCALLISTER: You grew up in Poland when it was still Communist, and that’s long in our rearview mirror. How would you explain the difference between the Poland that you were born into and what it is today?
JACEK KALITA: Yeah, I was born in 1982, and in December 1981, our – the leading party imposed martial law. They were trying to avoid trial, so they made people stay at home, basically. It was a very hard time for normal people. But as I said, Communism collapsed in 1989, but the earliest times
I remember was when I was around five years old. So, at that time already, you could tell that Communism was going to fall, one day or another. I didn’t feel oppressed. I had a very happy childhood.
Of course, there were many changes after we became a democratic country, but they were not so dramatic. Not like, 100% life-changing. We were able to travel, but when I was small, I didn’t care so much about it. Step by step, Poland became a richer and better place to live for sure. But like I said, the worst time, I don’t remember. I was born at the right time.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Are your parents still alive?
JACEK KALITA: Yes, sure. They are. They just turned 70, but they are in very good health. My grandma is still alive. She’s ninety…she’d be 94 in August, so yeah. She’s -- I just wanted to say that she’s the one who learned me how to play bridge, so she’s special for me.
JOHN MCALLISTER: What’s her name?
JACEK KALITA: It’s Jadwiga – I’m not sure if I can think of – I think it’s a Polish name. It doesn’t have an equivalent in English.
JOHN MCALLISTER: And does she still play bridge?
JACEK KALITA: Not anymore, but we play some other card games. So, probably she could. Now, it’s tough together for people together –
JOHN MCALLISTER: Does she live with your parents?
JACEK KALITA: No, she lives by herself. She’s got two mates to take care of her. She’s active and happy, so. I’m happy to have her.
JOHN MCALLISTER: What does she think of your bridge accomplishments?
JACEK KALITA: Ah, she’s very happy. She’s always very supportive. She’s following closely, and you can imagine that she’s very proud when I win something big.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Who’s the first person you called when you won the Bermuda Bowl?
JACEK KALITA: I think the safe answer is my wife, which is probably true because with her, I can speak – even though it’s in China, Facebook stopped working, but I have the Chinese version of Facebook, so we use that when I’m in China. So, I think it was my wife.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Gotcha, gotcha.
JACEK KALITA: But my parents, like my father is a real bridge player. He used to play in the Polish top divisions. And he can absolutely follow when I play, like he’s capable of telling me I made a mistake, so we discuss bridge quite a lot with him.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Do you remember specifically getting to a point where it was like you realized you were better than your father?
JACEK KALITA: Mmm, not really. I never thought this way. It was funny because when I was younger, we would play together quite a lot. And bridge in Poland used to be quite strong when I was young. I think was much more strong player than now, was much more popular. So, we played like, in the second or third division together. I don’t know, I was 13th, 14th? I was very short at that time, so I looked probably even younger than I was. So, people thought that father with son came to play for fun, they have no clue, whatever. They let them play – they let us play because I’m young. But after that, after the match, usually they were not so happy anymore because we were very successful most of the time when we played together. Nice thing that I like playing with my father a lot. Unfortunately, I didn’t have much time to play very often, but we try to do it at least once or twice a year.
JOHN MCALLISTER: I see you’ve been playing some tournaments online with Klukowski. Talk to me about him, his success. When you agreed what you were going to play together, how did that – I’m interested in how that went.
JACEK KALITA: So, the reason we play together was that Michal’s confession, he decided it’s a good idea that he’ll stop playing till the end of the year, at least if some authorities will not decide otherwise. So, I thought it’s a good opportunity to play with Klukowski.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Sure.
JACEK KALITA: With Mr. Gwarys, like online bridge. So, Klukowski was available. So, I don’t know who asked first. But yeah, he’s a great player. He’s truly amazing for his age, for sure. It’s really incredible how deeply he understands bridge at his age. I remember when I was – like, he’s now 25, I believe. When I was at his age, bridge was just entertainment for me. I was happy when I get my slam on three finesses and a squeeze at the end. That was pure joy. And he’s already super experienced. Probably very few people achieved as much as him, as he already did. So…yeah, but I have to say, I’m really impressed by the way he plays. He understands bridge. It was also a great lesson, and I think I wanted to improve, for sure.
And we’re also very good friends, like we – it was nice that even that we don’t play together before, we spoke so much about bridge, we discussed bridge so much that we could sit there without even discussing any methods, and then we would simplify it. He sent me 120 pages of notes, anyway. But most of the time, it was completely unnecessary because we just understand each other.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Yeah, that was my question. So, he just sent you 120 pages of notes, and that was the –
JACEK KALITA: Yeah, yeah. We agreed to play his notes.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Gotcha.
JACEK KALITA: Because I used to play Polish club, and I think we played with Michael. We played pretty much sike standard methods.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Standard American, you mean.
JACEK KALITA: Yeah, yeah. Which was not familiar, so we decided to play his way, so. But as I told you, I had – it wasn’t that difficult to master, and I just read it a couple of times, and I was fine.
JOHN MCALLISTER: And what’s it like – Michael, like what’s it like? Was there jealously seeing him being so successful at such a young age, or just happy?
JACEK KALITA: No, it was – I was always happy for him. I felt I’d be like his older brother. And I’ve known him since he was – I don’t know, 12? 13? Whatever. And yeah, he’s maybe – in the States, he doesn’t look like it because he’s focused on playing. But in real, he’s a very friendly, likeable guy. And, yeah, we get along from the beginning and remain friends [inaudible].
JOHN MCALLISTER: That’s a good partner to have as a backup.
JACEK KALITA: That’s true, yeah. No doubt.
JOHN MCALLISTER: You have a son. How old is your son?
JACEK KALITA: He just turned 11 months. He will have his first birthday soon, so we’re looking forward to celebrating his birthday. I always wanted to have a big family, and I want to have kids, but I didn’t realize how great it is. But on the other hand, I thought I was prepared to be a father. But after 11 months, I could tell that I really wasn’t. Like, every day is a surprise that he comes up with new ideas, and that’s something special. But I enjoy it a lot. He is healthy, he is smiling all the time. He’s happy. I can’t imagine of having it better.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Is your wife a bridge player?
JACEK KALITA: We met on a bridge tournament. She was more serious when she was young. She was like a Polish junior girls championship. But basically, she quit when we started dating, which was a really long time ago. I won’t tell you how old she was at that time.
JOHN MCALLISTER: [Laughter] OK. Because Michael told me that he’s expecting a child, also. Klukowski.
JACEK KALITA: Yeah, yeah. I think in two weeks, they are expecting.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Are you excited for tournaments to come back, to be playing live?
JACEK KALITA: Yeah, sure. Even though I started to like internet bridge more, I miss seeing all my friends. And also, I think real bridge is when you hold cards in your hand, and you have opponents sitting next to you having a computer screen.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Apparently, you like Quentin Tarentino movies?
JACEK KALITA: Yeah, I do like Quentin Tarantino movies. Although, recently, he didn’t publish anything new, and I don’t have so much time to watch it. We used to organize – I would call it “Movie Month.” I don’t know if you have the same thing, or how you call it. But yeah, we would sit all night drinking and watching Tarentino movies with my buddies. And that was a good time.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Inglorious Bastards is one of my favorites.
JACEK KALITA: I would have to say that I think that’s my least favorite.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Oh, really?
JACEK KALITA: Because – yeah, I don’t know. I’m not sure if I’m very much into history. Deep down, I thought that making fun of World War II is not something you should do. At least part of me felt this way, even though I still like the movie.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Yes, I hear you. What is your favorite Tarentino movie?
JACEK KALITA: Pulp Fiction. I like all of the old ones. I like [Christoph] Waltz. So, yeah, he made the new movies good. I like all the characters he played. Yeah, pretty much all of them.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Do you think that there’s a question I should be asking everybody on – future guests on the podcasts? Should we go back to the “Are you better than Kalita?” or –
JACEK KALITA: No, I think you should maybe come up with something new. It’s boring at some point.
JOHN MCALLISTER: It’s really been a pleasure. I appreciate your patience.
JACEK KALITA: I think you should – OK, I think maybe you should find out the question that can embarrass Stevie Weinstein. I have some ideas. I have a few ideas, but I would rather say it off the record.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Oh, man. Alright. I look forward to that quest to find the question that will embarrass Stevie. [Laughter] You’ve given me my marching orders. Thank you very much. This was a great conversation, and I particularly appreciate your willingness to answer some tough questions.
JACEK KALITA: No, I think – now, I think it’s tough for some people, and some people will hate what I told you because they have, like – let’s say a moral conduct code. Or, I don’t know, they believe that I’m so pure. But I think life is not that black and white sometimes. They don’t know everything. So, I think I – the rhetorical conversation, they may be – we’ll have a chance to change their mind and see a different perspective, I hope. And I don’t think there’s anything I should hide. That’s it.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Yeah, I think it’s easy to villainize people, particularly when they’re not in our – when we’re not actually engaging with them. It’s much easier to villainize people who have maybe made a poor decision when we’re not having – when we’re not in the same space as that person. And so, I think one of the reasons – what I admire about Michal is that he did come forward and share what he did, and he owned it.
JACEK KALITA: Yeah, I agree.
JOHN MCALLISTER: And I think that’s an important element in the forgiveness.
JACEK KALITA: What’s interesting is that for me, bridge is pretty much my whole life, and my job, my hobby, the way of spending time. And I don’t see that – of course, if you’re cheating with [inaudible] or the other purse, that’s something pretty bad. But this, I didn’t feel that – of course, it’s bad what people did, but it’s like, I would be ready to forgive those people. It’s not that – they made a mistake. Most of the time, it was just a stupid mistake, and I’m pretty sure now that most of the people that did it are unhappy, and they regret what they did. And I think it’s enough of a punishment.
And people see that if you did something like this, it’s like ruining the game that is super pure and super great. Hard to tell where is the border when you are ruining the game, then. If you – let’s say subconsciously, you take advantage of partner hesitation or whatever, is it ruining the game or not? I think that happens. You can’t eliminate it completely. You should try to play fair, but it’s also part of the game, yeah? Like when you commit a foul in basketball, that’s part of the game. That’s normal. That’s human. And then, this internet thing seems to me as a human mistake. We [inaudible], but we should move on and then try to forgive people.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Last question: how many hours of bridge are you playing a day right now?
JACEK KALITA: Not that much. That depends. Like, on average, I would say four.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Yeah.
JACEK KALITA: Because I play – we play probably a bit more, but usually I play 2-3 weeks a month. So, I have some days off. It’s also – I’m happy because it’s a good practice. We normally, with Michal, we played a lot, which I think was another upside for our partnership that we didn’t really practice our bidding that much, our methods mostly for playing. So, now that we can play, it’s a good opportunity to be in faith, let’s say.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Alright, man. It’s great to see you. I look forward to seeing you in person.
JACEK KALITA: Yeah, that’s what I wanted to say. It was great to see you, and yeah. Say hi to all my friends when you see them.
JOHN MCALLISTER: OK.
JACEK KALITA: Brother, you have more chances – better chances to see them. Tell them I miss them, and take care and enjoy the whole thing very much. Thank you for inviting me.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Yeah, man. It’s a pleasure. You’re the number two player in the world.
JACEK KALITA: Thank you.