EPISODE 45: Jenni carmichael
We have saved today’s guest to appear once the next in-person Nationals loomed near. Meet Jenni Carmichael, our first tournament director on the show and spouse of TST Guest #24 Tom Carmichael. A fine storyteller, Jenni finds the humor and draws out the drama.
Episode Highlights:
1:20- Chances of Austin Nationals happening
5:23- Requirements to become a director
11:15- 3SXX making is clearly an average board
15:00- “I just have four cards left to play”
17:05- How Jenny got into directing
24:00- “The only law we care about is God’s law”
28:46- “Does he have his bid?”
40:44- Bridge camps
46:30- Mixed Pair stories of absurd scores, intense pressure, and momentum
53:26- If no Greg, maybe no Double Dummy
55:20- Jenni once held a long grudge against her current director idol
1:11:12- It is useless to psych against Jenni
1:14:13- But her psychs are deadly
Transcript:
John McAllister: All right. So today I have an episode that has been long in waiting because we have our first tournament director, also a fine player, an NABC champ, Jenny Carmichael. And I've told Jenny, I said, "I didn't want to have you on until we were getting ready for the next in-person NABC," and fingers crossed, that's happening next month in Austin. Jenny, what do you think the chances of Austin happening are?
Jenny Carmichae...: I actually think they're pretty good at this point. We just got word today that Las Vegas, which is happening two weeks before is a go. That was just announced today. So, I think if they're letting a regional happen, it seems likely, or hopefully likely that the nationals will happen.
John McAllister: And through what channel did you hear that Las Vegas was happening?
Jenny Carmichae...: Oh, I'm supposed to be working the tournament. So, the director in charge sends out an email to the staff saying that it was announced today. The board has decided we're going to go ahead with this. I believe it's going to be the-
John McAllister: And that was the ACBL board that made that decision.
Jenny Carmichae...: I'm not sure if was the ACBL board or the Las Vegas board. I'm sure the ACBL board would certainly want it to go, but I don't think they have their hands in regionals. This is going to be the locals in consideration with the ACBL as well because ACBL will be looking to make sure Las Vegas meets the criteria that we're setting out. That it will be a safe environment to be able to hold a tournament.
John McAllister: What was your reaction when you got that email? And do you know if it's going to be masks or what do you know about the safety requirements?
Jenny Carmichae...: Masks will be required. I do know that. I am very happy that if we're going to be having the nationals, I'll at least have worked one live tournament prior to the nationals. I think Austin's going to be a very hard tournament for most directors considering we haven't had to work live in almost two years now. The majority of our rulings can't be done on the computer because they're mechanical errors, things like insufficient bids or bidding when it's not your turn or revoking,-
John McAllister: Oh.
Jenny Carmichae...: ... leading out of turn.
John McAllister: Right.
Jenny Carmichae...: I mean, these are the majority of our calls and we haven't had to deal with them now since the pandemic. It'll just be good to get back in the groove.
John McAllister: Wow. So, what's your pandemic directing? Well, how is that working for you?
Jenny Carmichae...: Well, the ACBL has been hosting online regionals. So, I've been directing all of those. In addition, I have started doing training for people who want to become club directors. Not everyone is doing this. This has just been me and Melody [Euler 00:03:19]. So, we've been out there teaching, and the number of people that want to learn has been great because so many people have either decided to stop directing after COVID or we lost some people. A lot of the club directors are older, so they've been aging out and not interested in returning. So, we've just had these massive classes.
John McAllister: And what do you attribute that interest? The new interest in directing for people.
Jenny Carmichae...: I think their local clubs have been pressuring people to learn how to become a director because they've lost so many people that they had. They're available directors. They're not going to have anybody ready when they want to open up with face-to-face. So, they've been talking to their players that they have expressed some interest and said now's the time, especially when everybody's at home and we can do these on Zoom. It's not like we have to go anywhere. We don't have to meet at the tournaments. We were just doing it all over Zoom, and it's been very, very successful.
John McAllister: And how much time does it take for somebody to be able to direct at a club or do you even need any sort of certification to do that?
Jenny Carmichae...: You do need a certification. You have to pass a test. So, the test is 112 questions. That's our current test. And you have three hours to complete it. It's all open book. So, you don't have to take a course to do it, but the course helps focus on the main things the test is going to be asking about.
John McAllister: And what is the passing score on this test?
Jenny Carmichae...: 65.
John McAllister: Out of 112?
Jenny Carmichae...: Out of 100. 65 out of 100.
John McAllister: 65 out of 100. So, did you take this test once upon a time?
Jenny Carmichae...: I did.
John McAllister: And what did you score?
Jenny Carmichae...: I don't know how I scored. I think I scored in the 90s, but it may not have been that high. I honestly don't know.
John McAllister: You sent me a great article about your winning your NABC Mixed Pairs with Greg Humphreys, who was my partner in my first NABC event. And you told me about this article because you told me that Greg had doubled for spades against me in the event. And when you told me that, you didn't give me any details. And so, I was concerned that I possibly had made some bad plays on this deal.
Jenny Carmichae...: No.
John McAllister: So, I was very relieved when you got me that article, and we'll include a link to it in the show notes, that it was just your aggressive bidding and Greg's defense which earned you this 100% score in the mixed pairs championship that you won.
Jenny Carmichae...: It's true. And at the time, Greg had given me a little talk about what he thought of my double because he thought I should have a better hand. So, I guess I was a little sensitive and thought maybe I shouldn't have made that bid. I talked with Tom about. He said he thought it was perfectly normal to double two hearts. I was five, five with king, jack, [inaudible 00:06:47] hearts. It seemed normal at the time. It wasn't until I started hearing about how perhaps that wasn't the wisest decision. It worked out well on this hand, but Tom alleviated my fears that I was doing something ridiculous. And it was actually just a normal kind of bid.
John McAllister: Well, I confess to being sort of a slave to the double dummy analysis. And when I found the hand... Because somebody linked to it in the bridge winner, Danny Miles. And so, I was very happy to see that I was sitting south and declaring and that three spades was the maximum I could take on the hand. So, it was an honest result.
Jenny Carmichae...: Yeah. I was looking at the hand. It takes very precise defense to beat it. Greg has to shift to the club in time before all the clubs get pitched away.
John McAllister: He's your one standing date for NABCs?
Jenny Carmichae...: He is my one standing date, and he is truly a great partner for me. I mean, when he has his game face on, when he is ready to play, he really plays very well. And together, we just tear him down. I mean, part of it, I think is our system. People aren't quite prepared for the aggressive style that we play, but we're also both pretty good at reading people. And we seem to have a chemistry I haven't found with anybody else. We understand each other. We put tremendous defenses together. Some of our auctions leave something to be desired, but more often than not, we land on our feet.
Jenny Carmichae...: And we played together in the world championships a few years ago in Orlando as well. And we made it to the finals of the World Open Pairs. There is something magical with Greg and part of it is he really relaxes me. He just keeps me laughing the entire time. So, I don't get too stressed out.
John McAllister: So, was this instance of him criticizing your double, was that unusual then for him?
Jenny Carmichae...: It wasn't a heavy critique. It was a "Wow. I'm surprised that that's what all you had to double on." I mean, it wasn't like yelling or anything. Greg never yells. It was more just a surprised reaction that I was as light as I was.
John McAllister: It's cool to hear that he brings out the best in you. That's what I hear. That he brings out the best in you.
Jenny Carmichae...: He absolutely does.
John McAllister: And how did you two start playing together?
Jenny Carmichae...: So, we had known each other for a few years and we were hanging out in Gatlinburg. One year I was working and he said, "So, when are we going to play together?" And I thought, "Yeah, probably never." But I just kind of said, "Well, sometime we'll figure it out." And then I had a fall nationals coming up and I had some free time and I had no idea who I would play with. So, I reached out to Greg and said, "Hey, are you free for the Blue Ribbons?" And he said, "Sure." So, we went, we played in the Blue Ribbons, probably our seventh or eighth board together. So, we're just a few rounds in. We were having an auction. I know that Greg is playing my system. So, it might be hard to remember. I've thrown a lot of new things at him that he hadn't played before, but we were having an auction where he opened a no-trump and we agreed on clubs. And after that, he showed a short spade. He bid three spades to show a shortness.
John McAllister: Yeah.
Jenny Carmichae...: Which they doubled. And I redoubled to say, "I have the ace of spades." And next thing I knew, everybody passed. I had ace third of spades and I said, "Well, this is great." So, he also had three spades. And in the fullness of time, we were in three spades, redoubled, making. They never led trump. They had no idea what was going on. Just like we had no idea what was going on. So, we walked around all day saying, "Well, we don't know how we're doing, but we know we have at least one board that's not average." And the board turned out to be dead average.
John McAllister: No way.
Jenny Carmichae...: Because half the field was in three no-trump making, the other half was in six clubs, which was where we were on our way to. And we were right in the middle. So, we had our average, but we did qualify for day two. And that started quite the partnership.
John McAllister: I forget. Did you say the year that was?
Jenny Carmichae...: I want to say it was probably around 2013, somewhere in that range. I know we had played a few years before we won.
John McAllister: It's funny because it's like... I've totally been in the situation where somebody... It doesn't necessarily mean bridge, but somebody is like, "Let's play together." Yeah. But it happens in bridge, and you sort of... You're like, "Yeah." And you say sure. But it's amazing how that little question that he put in your mind or he asked you, and then here we are, and you're waxing... There's this article. I mean, you're really like it really led to great things.
Jenny Carmichae...: It really-
John McAllister: Yeah. I think it's really important for people to... And I need to do this more too, but to ask people about playing together.
Jenny Carmichae...: Absolutely. It definitely puts the [inaudible 00:12:57] and who knows what will come of it.
John McAllister: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, because you guys were sniffing around on that mixed pairs title before. I think you've finished in the top five once before.
Jenny Carmichae...: Yep. We had finished fourth and third and at least when we came in third, we should have won, but we had a mishap. And as happens... It's a lot of pressure. There's definitely a lot of pressure, especially when you know you're doing well. The year after we won, I think it was the next year, but it might've been two years later. We were going into the final session. We were in 97th, I believe, going into the final session. And it didn't feel like much of a session. I know Greg opened a no-trump a lot, but I don't really remember anything spectacular happening. I only moved up 92 spots and finished fifth.
John McAllister: Oh my God.
Jenny Carmichae...: It felt almost like winning. I was so excited that we moved that much. I've never seen anything like that.
John McAllister: Wow. Wow. So, this was after you guys had already won.
Jenny Carmichae...: It was after we had already won, but every year we've played, we finished in the top 10 except once. And that was the year Tom went into the ICU on day one.
John McAllister: Oh my God.
Jenny Carmichae...: We still qualified. I only continued playing because Tom was insistent I go play. I really didn't want to.
John McAllister: That's a totally-
Jenny Carmichae...: ... But we qualified.
John McAllister: ... [inaudible 00:14:34] for you.
Jenny Carmichae...: Yeah. Well, actually, I was sort of prepared for the fact that he might be going to the hospital. He had had some problems the night before. So, it was the end of the first session on the first day. And Terry Lavender came up to me and said, "We got to go. Tom's going to the hospital." And I was defending the final hand. It was five diamonds doubled. And I said, "I just have four cards left to play." And she said, "Did you hear what I said. Tom is going to the hospital." I said, "But I only have four cards."
John McAllister: This is your husband by the way for people listening who don't know. Maybe this isn't clear. This is Jenny's husband.
Jenny Carmichae...: And she said, "Well, okay. Finish your four cards." She stood there and waited. I played the handout and I met Tom at the stretcher at the ambulance. He hadn't gone anywhere yet. I didn't lose him.
John McAllister: That's it. That might be my favorite story in all the conversations I've recorded. "I got four cards left." Did you beat it?
Jenny Carmichae...: Oh, yeah. It was going down a bunch. And I just wanted to finish my hand. [inaudible 00:16:00] the hand, what can I say?
John McAllister: Oh my gosh. So, I wanted to do this conversation in advance of the nationals. Are the nationals your favorite tournaments to direct? Do you have a preference?
Jenny Carmichae...: So, when I first started directing, let me start there. I started directing because Tom had been my main partner for five years. And then he had his spectacular run in this bingo and came in second. And he said, "I really want to find a partner that I can compete nationally and internationally with." Tom had improved my game tremendously, but I still wasn't at that level. So, now when we went to tournaments, I was basically getting fixed up. I was finding partners through BBO, but I had a very high bar set and I was ultra competitive. So, when I would come back to the room, I would be upset because it was just another crappy day and it wasn't fun for me, but all my friends were at the nationals. I would hate missing them. So, that's what got me to decide to start directing. I wanted to direct nationals and [inaudible 00:17:23] so that I could play in the tournaments with Tom locally. He would certainly play with me locally. It's just nationally. He wants to play with a real serious partner.
Jenny Carmichae...: So, over time, I got my feet wet as a director and I started working nationals, which was just what I wanted. But along with nationals, of course, you have to work any local tournaments, sectionals, regionals. Now I have partners. So, now I would like to have more events free at nationals to play. But I understand this just goes with the territory. This is my job. And job comes first. It was very kind of Tom Marsh to allow me to have this one event in the spring. There are no directors. I think only Millard is the one I remember. He used to play in the Mixed Pairs every year, but no other directors that I know have gotten to play in national events. We just don't get two days off at nationals.
John McAllister: Really?
Jenny Carmichae...: Yeah.
John McAllister: Wow. How did you get that sweetheart deal?
Jenny Carmichae...: I think in a way I learned a lot of credence to directors in general. Being out there and performing well and showing that directors know some stuff too. And Tom and I had a standing agreement that if I ever lost, I was working the next day. If I didn't qualify, I was working the next day. It's not like I was guaranteed two days off.
John McAllister: Got it.
Jenny Carmichae...: And sometimes he would bring me in early to work the North American Pairs that would make up for those extra time I'm taking off during the tournament.
John McAllister: So, you're basically for a nationals expected to work every tournament day more or less.
Jenny Carmichae...: You're expected to work. If you're assigned for 10 days, you're going to be there for 10 days. You're expected to work nine of them.
John McAllister: And how does the day off work typically?
Jenny Carmichae...: They let the directors decide if they want a full day off or if they want two half days and you can put in for a specific days. If you want them, otherwise, the person in charge of that will decide what's best for how the tournament's working out.
John McAllister: And so, for Austin, for example, you have nothing scheduled to play.
Jenny Carmichae...: So, I certainly haven't arranged for anything. We expect Austin's probably going to be pretty small and it's possible that some of the full-time directors will get additional time off, but I'm just going to wait and see. Everyone knows that I'm always interested in playing in a national event if that can be arranged. So, I'm sure as it gets closer, I'll be talking with the person in charge of staffing.
John McAllister: So, we recently had a Zoom that you and Tom came to for double dummy. And because you're both featured in the film. And one of the things that you said, which got my attention was that you said that Tom... I forget how you said it exactly, but you said that he's a better player than you are.
Jenny Carmichae...: Absolutely.
John McAllister: Can you explain how you think about that? I'm not suggesting that that's crazy or anything. I'm just wondering, how do you know that with such confidence?
Jenny Carmichae...: When I hear him talk about hands, he will point out things that I hadn't considered. We were working with some juniors and we were discussing play of a hand at the end of a hand. The two of us will play against a pair. And at the end of each hand, we'll discuss anything that came up. So on this hand, in particular, they had over-called and now they made a lead. And Tom had to guess at trick one, whether the person had under-led an ace or a queen. It was against no-trump. This is probably going to be deciding the contract. So, he worked out that the person who had over-called spades had very weak spades. We had the ace, queen, jack between us.
Jenny Carmichae...: So, because he had over-called on such weak spades with only the king, he decided the person probably had the ace, which was correct. And while all of that makes sense and it's all logical, it struck me because I wasn't sure if I would have taken all that into account when first seeing them.
John McAllister: Yeah.
Jenny Carmichae...: I'd like to think I would. Probably I would get there, but that comes very naturally to him. He has years of experience on me, but more than that, he just thinks about the game differently. I mean, he's at a different level. There are levels to bridge and levels to how good you are. And I'm certainly not saying I'm not good because I think I am. I just acknowledged that he's better. He's certainly better with things, very technical place. I can pull off squeezes sometimes, but I'm not really confident in what I'm doing. Tom can do that stuff pretty routinely. So, I love to talk bridge with him because he always helps me see things a little clearer.
John McAllister: So, you said there's levels of bridge, which I agree with. I think sometimes it's difficult to know one's level. And I imagine though as a director that you run into a fair amount of people who are confident that they're at a higher level than maybe they are.
Jenny Carmichae...: For sure. Everyone thinks they're an expert. I mean, really it's the [inaudible 00:23:20] people who are the worst. Those who are on the brink of getting to be good players, but they think they know everything about bridge and they know everything about the laws. So, as a director, when I come to the table, they'll just argue with me. They'll tell me I'm wrong. It's amazing what they think they know. It doesn't matter if I have a law book to back up what I'm saying. I had a call once with two guys playing in the gold rush. I was actually the person reviewing because they wanted to appeal. And I'm concerned one of the reviewers at regionals and I'm on the NABC Appeals Committee at the nationals. So, we had to deal with a new law that's come into existence, comparable call. And it was whether somebody who had made an insufficient call of one heart if they could replace it with double as a negative double. And the answer is yes, that's part of our laws. They were adamant that that wasn't true.
Jenny Carmichae...: So, I brought out my law book and I showed them in writing what it says. And they said the only law they care about is God's law. And God did not say this. And there really wasn't much more to discuss after that. I can't argue with that. There's just nowhere to go other than to say, "I'm sorry, but we're not ruling in your favor there." That was the end.
John McAllister: You kind of scared me when I was listening to you there because I remember I had a director call in the last couple of months. I don't know if it was you that fielded it or not, but I don't remember what happened, but I remember being... I don't think it was you. I had a little bit of a disagreement with the director and I was worried that you were going to tell [inaudible 00:25:17] story.
Jenny Carmichae...: No, no. No, no. I do remember a call I had with you, and that was face-to-face.
John McAllister: Okay.
Jenny Carmichae...: You were the one who committed the infraction. Other than that, you were basically harmless in this story, but you had attempted to pass when it wasn't your turn. So, I was giving the next person the option to accept your pass and then they could bid. And he said, "But it's my partner's turn to bid." I said, "I understand. So, you cannot accept the pass and your partner will bid, and then John will pass or you could accept it and then you bid." He said, "So, if I don't accept it, he has to pass." I said, "Yes." He said, "Well, how can I get my partner to pass." I said, "Well, you can't even ask that question and you can't make your partner not bid." And that's unauthorized [inaudible 00:26:25].
Jenny Carmichae...: So after much discussion, he elected not to accept your pass, and it went back to his partner who now also started asking me questions saying, "So, he has to pass." And I said, "Yes." "No matter what I do, he has to pass." "Yes." So, she thinks, and she thinks, and she thinks, and finally she passes after a lot of thinking and it got passed out. I think they were called for game and your side made your bid.
John McAllister: Oh, man. That's amazing. Did you remember that-
Jenny Carmichae...: It was pretty amazing happening. We get all the fun ones.
John McAllister: Did you remember that before? Because I had said to you before... I said, "Think of some good director stories." Had you-
Jenny Carmichae...: That one has always stuck out. You were playing with a friend of mine. You were playing with David Granger. So, things like that stick out in my head.
John McAllister: Was this in Monterey?
Jenny Carmichae...: I'm not sure what tournament it was. That I can't remember.
John McAllister: I think that's the only time I've played with David.
Jenny Carmichae...: It felt like a California tournament, so it definitely could have been.
John McAllister: It's just funny how as a bridge director how you remember these details.
Jenny Carmichae...: People remember details about my rulings much more than I remember. I've had people come to me and say, "You remember that ruling from four years ago?" "No." "Well, I want to tell you that you're still wrong." "Great."
John McAllister: Who has given you that you can say... Name a name. Who has given you the most shit about a ruling? Can you name a name?
Jenny Carmichae...: Name a name.
John McAllister: Has given you the most grief about a ruling. Anybody you're comfortable naming?
Jenny Carmichae...: Well, this is someone who passed away, but I had an interaction with Richie Schwartz. It was in bracket one knockout and his opponents called me. He was playing with Fred Hamilton and I don't really know Fred all that well. I know he's kind of a jokester at the table. That's about all I know. In any case, Fred had dealt and passed and now Richie over-called a spade. And Fred kept forcing bids. He was cue bidding and cue bidding and Richie kept trying to sign off and Fred bid five clubs, which was still a cue bid. Richie took forever and signed off with five spades and Fred bid six spades. So, needless to say, the opponents called me. I mean he's a passed hand.
John McAllister: Yeah.
Jenny Carmichae...: So, I said, "Well, we're going to play the handout and call me back at the end if there's a problem." But I wanted to see a dummy because I just had no idea what it was going to look like. So, Fred came down with a prime 17 count. I don't know if he was distracted or what, but he came down with just a great hand, and Richie who's declaring said, "So, does he have his bid?" And I said, "I'm not going to make that judgment at this point. You're going to play it out and at the end, call me back." He said, "No, no, no, no. That's not how this is going to work. You're going to tell me right now." And I said, "Well, no. That's not what's going to happen. You're going to play and then later." He said, "They don't get to see if I go down or make it." I said, "Yes. In fact, they do." And then he played it out and I walked away and they didn't call me back. So, I went to them later, to his opponents, and said, "So, what happened?" They said, "Oh, he made it." I said, "Well, why didn't you call me back?" They said, "Well, we felt he had his bid."
John McAllister: I was playing in the mixed trials, which were on RealBridge, whatever, two weekends ago.
Jenny Carmichae...: Yep.
John McAllister: And there was a situation where it went a club on my right and they play weak no-trumps. And I passed and it went pass, and my partner doubled. I don't remember if they were vulnerable or not, but my screen-mate hesitated and then passed. And then I passed, and now my left hand opponent redoubled, and they got to one diamond and then I ended up bidding two-no and then went down in three-no, which I could have made, but I didn't.
John McAllister: Anyway, on RealBridge you have screens and you also have sort of a delay, I think, so that you don't know which... Anyway, but I called the director because I asked my screen-mate if she thought she broke tempo and she agreed. So then I called the director and then my left hand opponent had like a 3, 4, 4, 2, and they played short club, I think. Anyway, all this to say I don't really know the mechanics of it that well.
Jenny Carmichae...: Sure.
John McAllister: I don't really understand... If we'd been able to double them in one club, I think we were going to get a good... Well, we're definitely going to get a better score than going down three-no. There's a learning curve for me as a player to like when to call the director. So, what the director said is this call would come from the other side of the screen.
Jenny Carmichae...: Exactly.
John McAllister: And my partner is... This is the first time she's ever played in an event of this standard. She probably wouldn't necessarily even know, but how do you respond to that?
Jenny Carmichae...: I agree with what the director said. So, this is specific to screens. When a break in tempo happens on one side of the screen, it has to be the partner of the person who didn't break tempo who needs to be calling and saying it's obvious who was thinking for so long.
John McAllister: Got it.
Jenny Carmichae...: In a situation like this, it easily could have been you because you could be very close to passing or bidding. Passing a one level take out double can be... That can take some time to decide that's what you want to do.
John McAllister: Right.
Jenny Carmichae...: So, I think it's probably not obvious who took the time to think before they passed.
John McAllister: Yeah. Yeah, I mean-
Jenny Carmichae...: I think that's a situation where I would probably talk with some other players and I would ask them, "This is your hand and there was some time taken on the other side. What do you think is going on?" I would imagine players would say, "Well, passing a takeout double could be taking some time."
John McAllister: Yeah. So, to follow-through on this, did I sort of spoil it when I called the director? Did I kind of ruin my chances of getting... I mean, not that necessarily even people are going to be like, "It must've been the declare tanking," but does my calling the director and not my partner, does that mess anything up?
Jenny Carmichae...: We're still going to look at it. We're still going to take it into account, but we're also going to talk to your partner and if she didn't notice, then we're not going to pursue it or if she says, "I don't know who was thinking. My partner passed, how could I know who was thinking?"
John McAllister: Right. Yeah. But because of the mechanics of the director, now she's alerted to-
Jenny Carmichae...: I guess the fact that the director was called will spoil it. Yes. She will see the message that the director was called, but she won't actually ever see the director show up.
John McAllister: Oh, I guess that's interesting. Then maybe she doesn't know why the director was called, but maybe she can put it together later. Have you directed any of these tournaments on RealBridge?
Jenny Carmichae...: I've done some local things. I haven't done any of the [inaudible 00:35:12] or anything like that. That's really just a one man band, and that's been Mckenzie.
John McAllister: Because it's interesting. I would wonder if there's just even any... Because the screens are so protected. It's not like you're in a room where there's a screen where you can actually kind of... You have a much better sense of what's happening on the other side of the screen in real life than you do on RealBridge.
Jenny Carmichae...: Right.
John McAllister: But I guess you haven't really... I mean, it seems like you would have a lot less UI.
Jenny Carmichae...: It feels that way. And from what I understand, the trials are going on right now, and I've been chatting [inaudible 00:35:50]. McKenzie is also [inaudible 00:35:52] that. And now when the breaks in tempo happen, because they're playing LoveBridge tablets, people are assuming that these are technical issues versus thought issues. So, there's less UI and people are putting less thought into what this might mean. If it's slow on one side of the screen because they're playing with these new tablets and new software that they're just not getting the hang of it very easily.
John McAllister: How's that going? I was on the LoveBridge website last night. It's different. I was confused navigating it.
Jenny Carmichae...: I haven't actually looked at the LoveBridge websites. Our local club got some tablets and we played a test game. And to me it seemed pretty nice. You self-alert your own bids, but I think you still ask the partner if you're playing in a face-to-face context. It all seemed relatively easy once you get [crosstalk 00:36:53]. Right.
John McAllister: What do you mean you alert your...
Jenny Carmichae...: So, there was a button to alert.
John McAllister: What does that mean?
Jenny Carmichae...: So, you tap the alert button, but if you're playing face-to-face and all four players are at the table, even though you were alerted, they're still going to ask partner because that's what we're supposed to do when we're playing face-to-face.
John McAllister: Got it.
Jenny Carmichae...: You never asked the person what their bid meant because that would tell their partner what their bid-
John McAllister: I could see it being a pain on tablets to type explanations because I like typing on a keyboard a lot better than I like typing on a tablet.
Jenny Carmichae...: Well, I think the way this is working great now. They have two people in a room. So, it's me and my screen-mate. And you just talk. I don't even know if they're alerting their bids or just verbally alerting. And of course the people you alert your bids and your partner's bids.
John McAllister: Got it. So, I saw that you started out... You were a hearts player in your early days.
Jenny Carmichae...: Oh, yeah. My dad started teaching me card games from the time I was five. I started with casino and cribbage.
John McAllister: How often do you play hearts?
Jenny Carmichae...: Never.
John McAllister: Never.
Jenny Carmichae...: Never.
John McAllister: Really?
Jenny Carmichae...: Well, my house right now is just me and Tom. That's really it. I think a great three player game. So, I grew up playing it with both my parents. Just like pinochle. That's another good three player game. It's also good as two and four player although I didn't play it much with a partner. Once I got to the point where I was going to have a partner and we had four people, I was playing bridge.
John McAllister: Are you an only child?
Jenny Carmichae...: I'm the only child of both my parents, but I have three half-brothers.
John McAllister: Got it. They're much older?
Jenny Carmichae...: Yep. The next youngest is 10 years older than me. I never lived with him. He would come visit for summers, but he was never there year round.
John McAllister: Yeah. So, you would play hearts with your mom and dad.
Jenny Carmichae...: Yep.
John McAllister: And is your mom still alive?
Jenny Carmichae...: No. That was actually what got us to move out to Seattle.
John McAllister: Okay. Tell me-
Jenny Carmichae...: We'd been living in Atlanta for a long time and it was mostly for my mom. I mean, I was very close with my mom and she was my best friend. So, we would get together pretty frequently. She watched my dog. Once she passed, I never really liked Atlanta that much. I didn't like the weather. We didn't have a lot of friends there. So, it was time to move on.
John McAllister: Oh, so she lived in Atlanta.
Jenny Carmichae...: Yes.
John McAllister: I see. And you moved down there because she was in ill health or you just wanted to be closer to her?
Jenny Carmichae...: No, no. Just to be there. Yeah. I had moved around a fair amount after college and then eventually ended up back at my mom's place.
John McAllister: You met Tom at a bridge camp, right?
Jenny Carmichae...: I met him in Belgium in '95 at a bridge camp, but we were mostly just acquaintances for a long time. He was in the elite group of bridge players. He had just come off doing well on the world championships. And he was playing with Joel. They were rising stars and I was basically a novice kind of bridge player. So, I saw the good players and I stayed far away from them. I just stayed with all us other novices bridge players and went out drinking and had a great time.
John McAllister: According to the article, somebody paid for you to go to the camp? You got some sort of scholarship or something.
Jenny Carmichae...: I got sponsored to go. Yep. Howard Piltch was my sponsor. You need to have somebody vouch for you, and then I had to pay for my plane ticket there, but everything else was covered. I actually found out about it very late. When I started college, I didn't realize that there was this whole world of junior players. All of a sudden, I found some locally because I was at college in Boston. So, there were a lot of college bridge clubs. There was MIT and Harvard. And I saw some young players. Once I found Okbridge and started playing on there, I saw there were a lot more. And one of my partners told me about this bridge camp that he was going to be going to and said, "I should look into it." When I got in touch with Howard, I think it was two days before the deadline, but everything got taken care of and I ended up at the bridge camp.
John McAllister: So, you just finished your freshman year of college or something like that.
Jenny Carmichae...: Yep. Yep.
John McAllister: And how long was the bridge camp?
Jenny Carmichae...: Two weeks. I think it was two weeks.
John McAllister: What was the average age of kids who were at the bridge camp?
Jenny Carmichae...: Pretty young. I would say 18, 19. Tom was on the older end being 22.
John McAllister: Because I've heard about these bridge camps before, but I didn't experience it for myself even though we're probably around the same age. I learned bridge when I was 18, but I didn't go to my first bridge club until I was probably 24. And actually Greg... Because I live in Charlottesville where Greg lives. I think he lives. I'm not sure if he still lives here-
Jenny Carmichae...: He does.
John McAllister: ... but he would come and play sometimes with Noble [Shaw 00:42:30] who was playing... I remember he was playing on the junior world championship team. And so, that was a big deal at the bridge club when the two of them would show up, but I never befriended him at all. I never introduced myself to the two of them. I sort of missed the boat on that. I think Greg and I are pretty much the same age actually, but didn't become friends with him until later, I started telling you this because I had a question in mind and I-
Jenny Carmichae...: Sounds like it was about bridge camps.
John McAllister: Yeah. So, the bridge camp, you were there for two weeks. And what was the format? How did it work?
Jenny Carmichae...: That one was not run especially well. From what I understand, the international camps were not run as well as the American camps. So, for me, we were staying in college dorms and [inaudible 00:43:22]. And there was no air conditioning in the main playing room and it was very hot. This was summer and it was incredibly hot. So, they had some lectures in the mornings, which I never went to. Then they had some kind of fun game in the afternoon. There were usually some requirements. Maybe you had to play with somebody from a different country or maybe that was just what I was doing since I didn't really know many people.
John McAllister: Yeah.
Jenny Carmichae...: And then there was some free time at night. I mean, generally, I was going out with some of the other people. We would go hit some bars, drink a lot of cherry beer. That was the thing to drink there.
John McAllister: Did you make any friends besides Tom at the bridge camp?
Jenny Carmichae...: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Some of my closest friends came out of that bridge camp. Dave [Browers 00:44:11], somebody that I met there. We met the first day and we've been friends ever since. And there were quite a few that I was friends with. Dave [Janace 00:44:20] from Pride. Lisa Cow, sort of. She's kind of dropped out of the bridge world, but the Americans, I got to know reasonably well. I mean, some of them I became friends with later in life like Tom. Tom was somebody that I knew of. Joel was somebody that I do. Blair Seidler. Yeah. Kevin Wilson actually introduced himself to me on our way over. I guess he was just about to age out. I think he might've been one of the chaperones there. So, I was sitting alone on the plane and he sat down next to me and introduced himself, made me feel very welcome. And these are all people that I still talk to, and I'm pretty good friends with today.
John McAllister: Did you go to more than one bridge camp?
Jenny Carmichae...: I only went to one other one the next year I was in Marco Island, and that one was really fantastic. I loved that bridge camp.
John McAllister: What was better about it or what was...
Jenny Carmichae...: It was held at a resort. So, it was very fancy. There were lots of pools. There was a miniature golf tournaments. There were tennis tournaments. There was a lot of stuff to do. And I was a slightly better bridge player maybe. Not that that mattered. That was the year I learned how to play barbu, and I learned crates. I was learning a lot of games at that camp. It was a great time.
John McAllister: You're a good storyteller.
Jenny Carmichae...: Thank you.
John McAllister: I mean, I like listening to you tell stories. Yeah. Definitely. What stories did you have prepared for today?
Jenny Carmichae...: My favorite story is from the year that Greg and I won the mixed was... We were just about to start the final session and I was feeling pretty jittery. This guy walks up to me and he says, "They let you off to play?" And I said, "They did." He said, "Well, that's great. Good luck." I said, "Thank you." He said, "I hope you win." I said, "Me too." He said, "Well, I say that, but that Greg and Jenny looked like they have it locked up, but I hope you do well anyway." So, I grabbed my convention card and I showed it to them showing him my names. And he said, "You're Jenny?" And I said, "Yes, I am." He said, "Oh my God. Well, I do hope you win." And he went racing off to his partner and was pointing at me.
John McAllister: Oh, man.
Jenny Carmichae...: So, that was definitely one of the highlights.
John McAllister: For people that don't know, your scores in that event are pretty absurd.
Jenny Carmichae...: They were pretty absurd. We started with almost 75%, the first session. And then the second session we dropped all the way to 69? Yeah, 69. That was our first day totals. And the second day we started and it just felt like people want us to win. We had all these plus scores in our column. I was walking outside just trying to shake off my nerves. Brian Glubok came up to me and said, "So, how's it going? Are you still holding on?" And I showed him my card and said, "Look." He said, "No, no, no. I'm playing in your offense. I don't want to see." I thought he was playing in the Vanderbilt. I said, "Oh, okay. Sorry."
John McAllister: I think Danny Miles posted on bridge [inaudible 00:47:53] that you had 24 out of 26 plus scores.
Jenny Carmichae...: I've never seen a card like that. It was just incredible. The gift Greg gave me after we won, it's just one of the best gifts I've ever gotten. So, he took the hand records from all four sessions and he framed them four to each frame and he put comments on a bunch of the hands. Wow. Look at that. It's just an amazing, such an amazing thoughtful gift.
John McAllister: Will you take a picture of that for us so that we can put it on the website?
Jenny Carmichae...: Definitely. Bobby Levin came up to me the day after and he told me that I was robbed. He said, "You shouldn't have had to play RealBridge in the evening. Your score was so big. You should've been able to not show up and still win, but instead you actually had to play." We worked it out and saw we had scored at least 45% to win. We actually scored 60, but that was Bobby's take on.
John McAllister: It sounds like you were more nervous than Greg.
Jenny Carmichae...: I think we were both pretty. In the first round, we were playing against Maryann Nicholson. I'm not sure if I said her name quite right, but one of the top, top foreign players and I was very jittery. It's hard not to be when you have so much riding on the line and I did not play well the first few boards and that just made me more nervous. So, as the session was going on... And it felt like we weren't scoring well on board after board. Greg passed me in five no-trump, which was pick a slam. There were many bad things going on. And I had no idea if we were actually going to win. And then just some random hand, our opponents were landing on two spades and Greg doubled. And first I had to decide if this was penalty. I mean, I couldn't think what else it would be, but am I really supposed to pass? And I sat there thinking for a long time and eventually I passed.
Jenny Carmichae...: And one of our directors was looking, seeing how we're doing. And she ran away to go look at the hand records to see if it was going to go down. In the fullness of time, it did go down and that just swung our momentum. And next thing I knew, things were going our way. I've always taken to heart something that Meckstroth said, which is, "Momentum is a big, big thing." And we didn't have the mojo going on until that happened. And it swung the event, at least, for me.
John McAllister: Was this in the evening session of the final?
Jenny Carmichae...: It was.
John McAllister: I would think it's a lot of pressure too. You've done well in the event before. You've been fourth, you've been third. Then you have this monster first day. Like it almost would add more pressure potentially to the situation because it's-
Jenny Carmichae...: It did.
John McAllister: ... like, "How can we lose?"
Jenny Carmichae...: We really wanted it. We wanted that win. Going into the last couple of rounds, a good friend of mine, Dan [inaudible 00:51:23] came to kibitz. And that also made me nervous. He's a very, very good player. And I know I got to some slam. Greg put me in a slam and probably I took a long time to play it, but eventually I made it. And then another friend of ours, Alex Hudson, came, sat down and this was right after the [inaudible 00:51:50] had gone up. And Dan had already gone in and looked and came back and hugged me. We're still playing, but he came back and hugged me. And Alex sat down and was just trying to make eye contact with me, I guess, to tell me that we won. He was really focusing on me. I don't remember what the final contract was, but I was on opening lead and I really wanted to get it right. Even though everyone was telling me we had won. I wanted to get that opening lead right and I did. I thought about a long time and I got the opening lead [crosstalk 00:52:24]. And to celebrate, Greg and I went and played in the midnights.
John McAllister: Of course. Of course.
Jenny Carmichae...: We didn't last very long. I think we were out the first round.
John McAllister: Oh my gosh. That's classic, Greg. Greg is really the reason that I made the movie actually because he invited me to a brainstorming session in Memphis at my first NABC and there was a free dinner. That's why he invited... Basically, that was the context in which I was invited, but it was a brainstorming session on how do we get more young people interested in learning bridge? And I didn't know anybody at the tournament really, other than Greg. So, I said, "Okay, sure. I'll go." And then at that meeting, I was like, "Oh, wow." I could be a part of introducing bridge to a new generation of players is how I've come to frame it. Yeah. And he was rooming with Adam Kaplan. And then Adam became the star of the film because I met Adam through Greg, but I haven't seen him. He lives in Charlottesville. I'm not even sure he still lives in Charlottesville. I haven't seen him-
Jenny Carmichae...: He does.
John McAllister: ... in a while.
Jenny Carmichae...: Yeah.
John McAllister: I guess I saw him maybe last year.
Jenny Carmichae...: Yeah, he's a good guy. We still have a tremendous time playing bridge together.
John McAllister: Were you going to play the mixed in Columbus with him?
Jenny Carmichae...: We were. We always are going to play in the mixed. That's our thing. We have a standing date to play in the mixed every year.
John McAllister: Have you always made the second day?
Jenny Carmichae...: Always.
John McAllister: Do you think you play better because if you make the second day, you get to play? Do you think that helps-
Jenny Carmichae...: No, I don't think that.
John McAllister: .... your arrangement with...
Jenny Carmichae...: I don't think about that at all. I mean, I do think that if I don't qualify, I should absolutely have to work, but I don't think about that consciously when I'm playing. I really do my best to focus.
John McAllister: Who's the boss of the directors?
Jenny Carmichae...: Currently, it's Greg Coles. He took over and I'm not sure if he took over this year or last year. Nancy Boyd was the previous person. I think she was still in that role when the pandemic started, but Greg took over during the pandemic.
John McAllister: I don't know Greg. I knew Matt Smith. I like Matt Smith, but I think he's retired.
Jenny Carmichae...: He has semi-retired. I think he's still doing some things in Canada, but his visa has expired. So, he's not coming back. He was actually one of my idols. He was one of the people who made me want to be a director. He is still to me what every director should strive to be.
John McAllister: Tell me about that. You said he was one of your idols and he made you want to be a director.
Jenny Carmichae...: Well, he's just the ultimate in professionalism and knowledge. And he knows the laws. He's always extremely prepared. He can still make some jokes and be casual, but in general, he is to me what a director should be. He's polite, he's professional, and he knows his stuff.
John McAllister: Yeah. I first met Matt in the Las Vegas and the Spingold. I made it to the round of... Our team made it to the round of 16-
Jenny Carmichae...: Wow.
John McAllister: ... and we beat the Kane team in the round of 32. The round of 32 was held in the main room. And there were screens, but it was in the main room. But then the round of 16 was in a separate part of the hotel. And I remember going up to that part of the hotel and really feeling like I had kind of made it. It was really cool to be in that sort of rarefied air. And Matt introduced himself to me and he congratulated me on getting as far as we had gotten. And it just really left an impression on me. It was really generous of him. I think he knew who I was, and it really set the tone. And I'm disappointed that he's retired, frankly, because I'll miss seeing him at the tournaments.
Jenny Carmichae...: That story is exactly the way I think of him. That's who he was. If I ever had a question, he would always take the time to answer it. He just was great. I mean, I really, really admired him. Having said that, I held a grudge against him for probably five to 10 years. I was playing in a national event with my junior partner and we were making the overalls of whatever the national event was. I think it was just an Open Pairs and this was going to be our first overalls ever in a Nashville event. And we had called the director. Our opponents had a hesitation Blackwood sequence and the director ruled in our favor and the other side appealed. And Matt who was the screener overturned the ruling. So, now we were going to appeal and he said, "Well, you can, but you're not going to win." This is just clear. He had his bid. It doesn't matter how long they took. He just had his bid.
Jenny Carmichae...: Well, I thought this was just because we were a couple of kids. Directors have it out for kids just like directors have it out for bad players or good players. Everybody thinks that when the director rules against them, it's because the director is out to get their class. In fact, we did lose the appeal. They did have their bid, but I held that against him for years. I just thought, "Boy, he doesn't like kids. He doesn't like girls, whatever. He doesn't like me. I'm going to show him."
John McAllister: I love that you're telling the story. It sounds like you spoke to him about it.
Jenny Carmichae...: Eventually. Eventually I told him that I had held a grudge for some time. Of course, he didn't remember because we don't remember. As directors, we don't remember these things. These things that players remember from years ago. And I'm sure he did the right thing. I believe that now, but back then, I was certain it was just because I was young.
John McAllister: So, when did you start admiring him? Because it sounds like you hold a grudge. Did you admire him before or once you had gone past the grudge.
Jenny Carmichae...: Once I got past the grudge. It was still before I became a director or around that time. I had gotten better over the years. I used to be a serious grudge holder, but I've gotten better about that. And I saw that he was a pretty professional guy. I just wasn't sure if he had something against kids, but I have since long decided that that was not the case.
John McAllister: See, that's a term that I've never heard before, but it makes perfect sense. In director speak, they had a hesitation Blackwood auction. I've never heard it described in those so few words, but it totally makes... Actually, what is a hesitation Blackwood?
Jenny Carmichae...: So, you bid Blackwood, partner shows you what they have and you take a very long time and sign off and then partner bids again. I bid [inaudible 00:59:56], you bid five clubs. I take a minute and sign off in five hearts and partner bid six hearts.
John McAllister: So, I'm guessing in this situation, the problem wasn't that they had four aces instead of one.
Jenny Carmichae...: I don't really remember. This was so long ago. This is more than 20 years ago. This is 23, 24 years ago. But I think maybe one hand had shown 18, 19 points. And the other hand had 16, 17 points. So, they just have enough values to know they're not off two aces, that they're always going to be bidding slam.
John McAllister: Got it.
Jenny Carmichae...: We don't deny people when they've shown 34 highs and say you're not allowed to bid slam because partner hesitated.
John McAllister: I had a problem playing with my partner who I played in the mix with where it went... She opened [inaudible 01:00:54] a club. And I think it went one spade. My partner bid a club. It went one spade pass four clubs by a passed hand. And now my partner bid four hearts, and I had five hearts. And I think I had two or three clubs and a singleton spade. I think I was five-five in the reds with the singleton spade.
Jenny Carmichae...: Okay.
John McAllister: And now it went four hearts. I don't remember who bid four spades. My righty or my lefty. And then my partner thought and then doubled. Now, if my partner doesn't think I'm going to bid either five clubs or five hearts.
Jenny Carmichae...: Sure.
John McAllister: It's pretty clear, but what about when my partner hesitates? What is my obligation now?
Jenny Carmichae...: It doesn't feel like that double could possibly be penalty. Your partner's already shown presumably like 11 cards and hearts and clubs. Something like that. Maybe 12 cards. So, doubling four spades is not, "Hey, I think we're going to take this apart." It's, "Hey, we got to do something."
John McAllister: Yeah. Because it went four hearts, pass, pass, four spades. That's what happened because I didn't have the... Now she's slow double. So pass, one club, one spade, pass, four clubs, four hearts, pass, pass, four spades. Now she slow doubles.
Jenny Carmichae...: Again, every hand... I can't say anything categorically, but this does not to me sound like a situation where you should be passing, especially when you have five hearts.
John McAllister: I thought I needed to maybe pass ethically. So, this is why I don't understand the rules. I thought I was ethically bound because of the slow double if pass was an option to-
Jenny Carmichae...: Right. But it doesn't sound like pass was an option. And that's the thing. A lot of players, even good players... I know. I had a ruling with an expert player who just doesn't understand that just because there's a hesitation before they take a pass or a double, it doesn't mean they're required to pass. In the end, my advice is to do what you think is right. Do what you think you should do. Do what you think you would normally do had partner doubled in tempo. And if there's a problem, that's what the directors are there for, but if you fall on your sword and you pass because you think you're ethically bound to, in the long run, that's just going to damage you more than anything else.
John McAllister: I've been trained that ethically we need to... I don't understand how the ethics work necessarily. And I've been trained that if pass is a logical alternative, but maybe you're saying it's not a logical alternative [inaudible 01:03:56].
Jenny Carmichae...: Right. To me, this doesn't sound like pass would be a logical alternative. But again, I don't know what your hand is. You told me you had five hearts. That right there is enough to say pass is not logical. I would always be bidding in this auction, especially when you passed one sped. It doesn't sound like you have a very good hand and you have [inaudible 01:04:16] support for partner.
John McAllister: Yeah. I mean, I couldn't believe it when my partner bid hearts, but we didn't get a very good score because me and my falling on my sword as you would describe.
Jenny Carmichae...: Again, I would say think about "What would I do if partner just doubled in tempo? I would bid five hearts." Just take that action. If the directors decide that pass was logical and they adjust it, that's up to them. But you should look at your hand and decide what is right. Don't try and figure out the ethics. That's what's going to hurt you.
John McAllister: Okay. All right. What are you most excited about for this regional in Vegas?
Jenny Carmichae...: I'm just excited to be seeing people. I'm really excited to get out there. This is the first time I'm going to see my colleagues face-to-face. We have all these Zoom sessions during the online regionals, but it's just not the same. I get to go out to dinner with my friends. I mean, they're my family. We all traveled together and we see each other so often. And now it's been almost two years since we've actually been in the same place.
John McAllister: When you do these regionals, do you have an open Zoom room?
Jenny Carmichae...: Yes. So, each event is divided into its own Zoom room. So, the Open Pairs will have all the staff that's directing the Open Pairs in one room. And then the gold rush Paris will have that stuff.
John McAllister: And then, what's the backend like? When you're on Bridge Base as a director, is it some sort of different interface than when I'm on there as a player?
Jenny Carmichae...: Not really. We have a director tab, so that's how we see the calls and we take the calls. But when we got to the table, I see the same thing you see except I see all [inaudible 01:06:09] hand.
John McAllister: And you haven't had a call for a lead out, a turn or anything like that? What's been different about the online besides those things that you can [inaudible 01:06:18].
Jenny Carmichae...: So, the majority of the calls that you get online have to do with tempo. They're playing too slowly. They're trying to run out the clock. Everyone thinks that it's deliberate. That people are stalling, so they don't have to make the decision. I think if it's at a point where it's a problem, the thinking. I think a lot of people attribute malice where it's unwarranted, but being online has really brought that out in people. They're just convinced that everybody is stalling on purpose. And that's the hardest thing to have to deal with. The other big things we have to work on are adjustments. So, unlike face-to-face when you're online, if the round runs out, it just cuts off mid-hand.
Jenny Carmichae...: And at least when the ACBL is running their regionals, we don't allow the computer to adjust the boards. So, we have people who look at every single hand and decide what the outcome would be. And that's really hard. That's going to create a lot of anger from one side or the other when we've adjusted it in some way that they don't think is right.
Jenny Carmichae...: I had one call... I'm not going to name any names, but I had a call with somebody playing in the premier pairs and he had gotten through six no-trump, and then time ran out. So, he wanted me to adjust it to them making because the other side had taken... Well, I was busy looking at it. You can't make it. It was just a matter of how many it was going down through any normal line of playing. And I had decided it was down one or down two, something like that. And he was arguing with me quite a bit. I didn't realize there was another director working on this. And I hadn't noticed that there was a lead directing double earlier in the auction. So, the other director was working based off the lead of the suit that was doubled for. And he adjusted it to down five. So, the player could argue with me a lot, but I was nice. I only assigned down two.
John McAllister: I think these national pair games are really... It's a treasure trove. I played in the premier pairs. Geoff Hampson sat in my seat. I can look at every card, every bid. I mean, I have a regular hearts game and spades game with friends here in Charlottesville.
Jenny Carmichae...: Oh, nice.
John McAllister: And we started playing on CardzMania because we were not doing it in person. And we haven't gone back to regular cards. We get together in person, but we still play on CardzMania.
Jenny Carmichae...: So, you all just pull out your phones. You sit at the table and play-
John McAllister: Yes.
Jenny Carmichae...: ... on your phones.
John McAllister: Well, I get my iPad out because I want more than just my phone.
Jenny Carmichae...: Is it still as social as...
John McAllister: Yeah, totally. Totally. One of the things is we play a lot faster because we don't have to deal and sort our hands. I mean, it's not so important in these games because you don't have the record, but NABC... In the premier pairs, you have a total hand record. I get to... I mean, I'm lucky. I'm friends with Geoff Hampson so I can text him, "Hey, why did you do this?" Or "Why did you do that?" I just think that... I know people are reluctant to do tablets, but I think there's a lot of... I'll be interested. I haven't played bridge in a tablet situation in person, but I played one online game. Excuse me. One in-person game since COVID. I was in Austin and we played at a live game. No masks required. It was really nice. I really hope Austin's going to happen. I'm excited to hear that this Vegas thing is happening.
Jenny Carmichae...: Speaking of Hampson, that reminded me of another story.
John McAllister: Okay.
Jenny Carmichae...: This is another story with me and Greg. This was also relatively early in our partnership and I had just taught him something new. So, we play precision, which is a strong club.
John McAllister: Yeah.
Jenny Carmichae...: And our new thing is that when they interfere, we play transfers. Even if they've over-called a suit, we can still transfer into their suit to show that suit because people psych, people do all kinds of things. So, Greg opened a club and Eric Greco over-called a spade and I was six, six in the majors with a slam force. So, I looked at it a while and decided I would bid two hearts to show spades. Greg alerted, and Geoff said, "What's that?" And I said, "Oh, well. This is new for us, but I'm pretty sure that that's the first to be spades." Geoff just kind of nodded. And Greg did two spades and went pass and I bid six hearts trusting that Greg would still believe that I have spades and hearts.
Jenny Carmichae...: So, Greg looked at that for a while and corrected to six spades. It went all pass. We had our 10 card fit. He was in the unique position of deciding whether the over-caller had king and one spade or two small. But in the end he had a singleton. He couldn't get the finesse. Six was called. We had to lose the king of spades. And after the hand, Geoff laughed and said, "That's pretty unlucky that we came up against you for this. Not many people have methods for handling psychs." And this proved to me that this is a good thing to have.
John McAllister: Well, particularly, when you play a strong club probably because people are maybe more prone. I accidentally psyched versus Debbie Rosenberg in a national pair game. I thought I had five spades. So, she opened the bidding like a diamond and I bid a spade, but I actually had five clubs and I had three spades. So, my partner had two and they had a four-four spade fit, which they made a slam in, but they ended up... They also had a four-four heart fit. And so, they played in hearts and they only played in four hearts, but they were scared. She was afraid that when I got in, I was going to give him a spade ruff, so she didn't take the finesse. Anyway, that was an accidental situation. Greco's a little more sophisticated-
Jenny Carmichae...: I had one-
John McAllister: ... than I am.
Jenny Carmichae...: Shortly after, I started directing. So, I worked most of the week and I was getting to play in the Sunday Swiss with Tom. And it was the first round. So, I've laid out all my excuses for why this happened. The auction went a spade, pass, and no-trump to me. And I bid two no-trump when I had hearts and diamonds. I just had a mental lapse and I bid two-no, and I had a [inaudible 01:13:59] in clubs. So, I had no idea how many clubs Tom was about to bid because I've shown clubs and diamonds. They doubled two no trump and Tom bid three diamonds, which shocked me.
Jenny Carmichae...: And next thing I knew our opponents were... They were declaring three spades. And dummy hit with five clubs. And now [inaudible 01:14:23] starts to mutter when dummy came down. He's just muttering away. And Tom led the ace with diamonds and I signaled for him to shift to clubs, which he said, of course, he knows because he knows I have all the remaining clubs in the deck. Tom only had three.
Jenny Carmichae...: So, he thought for a while and eventually let a club, which I reffed. And Tom kind of threw his hands up and said, "What?" And then he said, "All right. I'm done thinking." I don't know if he actually verbalized that, but he was done with the hand. There was no more thinking. So, when our teammates came to the table and said, "Sorry, we missed the slam." We said, "Oh." Well, at our table, they had bid a slam in one round. It went two no-trump, pass, six diamonds on a different hand. And they said, "No, no, we got to that one." We didn't get to six clubs on this hand where I had psyched them out of their 10 card club fit. So, we [inaudible 01:15:27] saw that hand too. And I felt so bad.
Jenny Carmichae...: As a director, I really don't try to get the opponents in general. When I play in national events, that's a different story and I'm going to play my game. But at regionals and sectionals, I don't want to [inaudible 01:15:45] people. That doesn't look great from a visual perspective that the directors are out there to get them.
John McAllister: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I agree. I agree. What kind of bridges are you playing these days? Do you and Tom play online or...
Jenny Carmichae...: Yeah.
John McAllister: Oh, you play with Adam Kaplan, you were saying.
Jenny Carmichae...: We played on a team with Adam Kaplan. So, Tom and I have been playing a little bit in the [inaudible 01:16:14] and Greg and I also played some with Adam and Christian in the [inaudible 01:16:19]. Actually the last one that we played in, the one that Tom and I played in, we had an amazing run. We just missed the semi-finals. We definitely should have made it there. On the last day, the day before we had made it to the round of eight, Tom and I had spent all day playing against Meckwell. They were our screen-mates. That was the pair we played.
John McAllister: Wow.
Jenny Carmichae...: And it took it all out of me. That is really draining. It was very fun. And we did well and we just had their number, but I couldn't perform after that.
John McAllister: So, you guys beat Meckwell and the [inaudible 01:17:06].
Jenny Carmichae...: We did. We did. We were out the first quarter and our teammates left us with a lead. And then we just put on more of a [inaudible 01:17:17].
John McAllister: Wow.
Jenny Carmichae...: We had just a great day. I got to squeeze Rodwell. That was definitely one of the highlights. It was a four club contract. It was kind of a nothing board, but I squeezed him to make my contract, and it was very exciting for me.
John McAllister: Was he your screen-mate?
Jenny Carmichae...: No, Geoff was. I got to see Eric [inaudible 01:17:41]. It was his only hope that... He had to hope Geoff had the king, but I did.
John McAllister: Did Geoff give you a little compliment on that one?
Jenny Carmichae...: No. As I was still playing it out, he said, "You're making four." "Okay." I think he was a little bit untilt. He then bid a grand. Just sort of powered into a grand more because he was upset that they weren't doing well. And it rolled. I mean, he was a grand and our teammates were not in that, but it was okay because we had the-
John McAllister: You had Josh [inaudible 01:18:14] untilt.
Jenny Carmichae...: Yeah. I even doubled them. I don't know if it was the final hand, but it was towards the final hand. I doubled them in a slam. They did to get Tom off to the right lead, which he [inaudible 01:18:29]. I cashed my ace, king, and that was that.
John McAllister: Why was it the right lead? Why did the double indicate that it was the right lead?
Jenny Carmichae...: I was doubling for dummies for a spade suit. I think it was dummies for a spade suit. I knew that they had had a miscommunication that Eric and Jeff were in kind of the same page. Eric had jumped to five hearts, which made it sound like he was looking for a second round control and a different suit. And then Geoff bid it. I doubled to make sure. I had over-called spades and I didn't want Tom's lead spades. I wanted him to lead dummies for a spade suit, which he did. I was pretty sure they were going to cash. So, it was an exciting day and a lot of fun.
John McAllister: You can't beat that. I mean, that's-
Jenny Carmichae...: No. I mean, one of my milestones was playing in Gatlinburg. I wanted to get over 4,000 points and I needed a 50th, but Gatlinburg, you can earn so many points. I was only available for the weekend because I was directing the rest. So, Tom and I had agreed we were going to play in the Saturday Sunday knockout. Well, instead, he found a team for the Friday, Saturday knockout. And this was still in the times where if you could not play one day as long as you play all of the next day. Those rules have changed since then.
Jenny Carmichae...: So, he said, "Okay. So, we're going to play on Friday and if we win, then we have to play in the semifinals on Saturday." Well, they did win. And now we drew Levin and Weinstein at the polls for the semifinals. That wasn't good for me. I mean, I was pretty sure I was never going to make my goal now, but we ended up beating them by two. So, the team had won. I think we were into 48 master points or so by then, but I was only eligible for three because I haven't played half the boards.
Jenny Carmichae...: So, if we lose in the finals, I'm going to win three master points. But if we win, we're going to win 60. So, this was 57 master points swing going into the finals. Now, the other match that was going on was Meckwell and I don't know who else versus David Granger's team and the Barts. And David Granger one. So, in the finals, we got to play Granger and the Barts and we beat them. So, I earned by 60 master points, made my 4,000 points. The next day when I saw Bobby Levin, he gave me the thumbs up.
John McAllister: Were you happy to draw David and the Barts?
Jenny Carmichae...: Very much. No offense to them, but they're not Meckwell. Meckwell is arguably the best pair in the world and I'm sure the rest of the team was also very, very good. I would rather play the Barts. Yes.
John McAllister: Fair. You didn't play in the mixed trials, did you?
Jenny Carmichae...: No. So, when the schedule came out before the deadline, I had two sectionals scheduled to be running and we hadn't canceled the tournament yet.
John McAllister: Oh, in-person.
Jenny Carmichae...: Yes. I was supposed to be going to play face-to-face. And by the time they got canceled, the mixed entry deadline had passed and they were full. So, sadly I couldn't get on the team. Tom and I did have a team lined up, but then we just couldn't do it.
John McAllister: This has been a lot of fun. I'm sure we could go on.
Jenny Carmichae...: No doubt.
John McAllister: I'm sure we could go on and on. And maybe we should do a follow-up session. Is there anything that you would like to share before we sign off?
Jenny Carmichae...: No, I think I had a lot of the highlights. Big things to remember. When you're playing, when you're out there playing, be nice to your directors. They're not out to get you. All we want is to have a fair game played and that's our goal. We don't have vendettas.
John McAllister: Well, I hope I see you in Austin.
Jenny Carmichae...: Yeah, me too. I'm looking forward to it.
John McAllister: All right. Thanks a lot, Jenny.
Jenny Carmichae...: And great job with double dummy. Really.
John McAllister: Thank you. Thank you. I really appreciate that.
Jenny Carmichae...: All right. Thank you.