EPISODE 36: Michael Xu
In June of 2019, I asked now 17 year old Michael Xu to help me prepare for my interview with his bridge mentor/hero, Michael Rosenberg. This sparked his progression from The Setting Trick helper, to The Setting Trick intern, and finally to The Setting Trick guest.
One year after I first reached out, Michael co founded the Youth Bridge Association, a nonprofit organization based on the idea of youth teaching youth bridge. As co president, Michael has helped host multiple classes as well as a tournament that drew 140 juniors!
Michael has generously agreed to share the below letter, which upon reading, Kevin Rosenberg, Michael Rosenberg’s son said, “it sounds like you’re trying to date my dad!”
Fabled “dating” email
Dear Michael,
A few months ago, when asked by my college counselor who would be the best person to write a letter of recommendation, the first and only person that came to mind was you. Before bridge, before SiVY, before you, I never thought I would come to identify so strongly with a community. If you asked me back then whether I believe that I will have such a robust relationship with a non-family member, I would have scoffed at that idea. Yet, over the span of 4 years, I have developed a truly extraordinary connection with you. From our first encounter in Toronto, to the first bombardment of emails, to the first in-real-life post mortem (@Atlanta), to the first dinner together (@Dennys), to the first time playing against you, to the first time hearing a "well-played" from your lips, and finally to the latest email, you have seen my growth from a completely clueless youngling to a now still slightly clueless and learning adolescent who knows some things.
Michael, you are the only one. You saw me at the Trials, going past midnight to review boards. You saw me at WuJiang, China, where even at the World Youth Team Championships, I was more preoccupied with learning than sleeping/eating. You saw me flood your inbox with emails, and when you think you answered them all, I 'rewarded' you with countless follow ups and more new emails. In short, you saw my relentless pursuit to learn, my unprecedented level of insanity, my unrestrained intellectual vitality. Throughout my journey, you were my ultimate mentor, answering my plethora of questions, elucidating mysteries, and even providing me with life advice.
Given our lengthy, special history, I feel that you are unique in your capability to vouch for me. Genuine intellectual curiosity is highly coveted by colleges, and I think you are most suited to testify about that on my behalf. Just as you had strongly advocated for me back in 2018 for the U16 team, I hope you will be able to advocate for me for college.
Would you be willing to write me a strong and unique letter of recommendation for my college application? If you have any follow up questions or need any further information, please don't hesitate to let me know.
Sincerely,
Michael
Michael Xu on left, Finn Kolesnik on right
Episode Highlights:
1:50- Is YBA for college application resume stacking???
3:20- How the YBA came to be
4:40- YBA class details
14:00- YBA is about advanced youth players paying it forward and giving back to the community
19:15- Michael Xu = Michael 1(?)
23:10- How Michael came to partner Finn Kolesnik
25:50- The Setting Trick internship = ultimate girls attractor
30:35- Michael’s work with Professor Samantha Punch and BAMSA research project
33:10- Michael Rosenberg gets bombarded by Michael Xu with thousands of emails full of questions
36:50- MEAT and Kevin Test
39:30- Michael’s attempt at dating Michael Rosenberg
46:20- How Michael learned bridge through SiVY
50:15- How listeners can help out the YBA
54:45- Michael is getting beat in the Life Master race by the younger SiVY generation
Transcript:
JOHN MCALLISTER: Yeah, we’re recording. We don’t want to miss any of the good stuff.
MICHAEL XU: [Laughter] Yeah, I’m excited about this conversation.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Well, you’re doing good stuff in the world of youth bridge, so I’m excited to have you on here.
MICHAEL XU: Yeah, thank you for that. And it does mean a lot to me for you to say that because it’s something I care a lot about.
JOHN MCALLISTER: So, it’s not just – one thought that I had when I saw this YBA, and I know you’re a senior in high school. You’ve got this YBA. I’m like, is this just something you’re doing to have on your college – on your resume for colleges?
MICHAEL XU: Right. I feel really strongly about this. The idea of community service for the sake of getting community service hours – on one hand, it actually disgusts me completely. If you look at what I’ve been volunteering for, the only thing I’ve been volunteering for is bridge. I don’t go build houses in – like, Columbia or something.
So, the YBA – well, the reason why we started it at this time – the big reason why is because of COVID. So, everything got canceled, so I got a ton of time that I didn’t have before, that I wouldn’t have had. So, that’s why the YBA was founded when I’m a senior. But I definitely understand that college admission officers look at what I’m doing with YBA favorably, but that’s not my point. YBA – I’m going to continue working on the YBA long after I’m in college and the initial process is over.
I have pride in my work, and it just disgusts me to do something for somebody else in a sense of for somebody else’s evaluation. I’m not doing this for an admission officer to check off on his checklist, “Oh, this guy shows leadership. He shows commitment. He shows community service.” Yeah, I’m not doing it for that. I’m doing it for youth bridge.
JOHN MCALLISTER: So, the YBA – it’s the Youth Bridge Association. And this is something that you and Michael One - Michael Hu, Arthur Zhou, and Jonathan Yue all started.
MICHAEL XU: Yeah, Arthur Zhou, Michael Hu, and Jonathan Yue, yeah.
JOHN MCALLISTER: How did it happen? What are you guys doing?
MICHAEL XU: Yeah, so, all of us – we’re all from SiVY, actually. So, we all had a very strong connection with having past mentors that really helped us in our journey in playing bridge. So, we all are really grateful for everything that has been given to us, and with me especially with the Rosenbergs and what SiVY has done for me.
And so, we thought to ourselves, we’re stuck at home, we have a lot of time. Let’s go do something productive. Let’s go give back to the community that’s given so much to us. And the idea here was YBA – the Youth Bridge Association, that concept is not something new. Right? It’s not like we came up with the idea of youth players promoting youth bridge. That idea has been around. That’s an idea. But we just decided that we were going to capitalize on that idea and actually do it – be the ones initiating the student-led organization.
JOHN MCALLISTER: So, you started in the spring, or maybe the summer you had your first – or was it even in the fall that you had your first classes? When did you have your first classes?
MICHAEL XU: I’m not too certain, but I do know that we began working on our website and everything during the summer, and I know that we had classes in August. Our first class was in August.
JOHN MCALLISTER: And how many kids did you get for the first class?
MICHAEL XU: We got around 30 students for the beginner bridge class, which was very nice.
JOHN MCALLISTER: And were they from – mostly people you all knew personally? Or were they from all over the world? Where were these kids coming from?
MICHAEL XU: Yeah, we actually had a lot of Canadians, and I was really surprised. Probably one-third of them were Canadians, and none of us are Canadians. And I think apparently, some Canadian moms under WeChat group spread the news about our organization, and that’s how we got a lot of Canadians to come.
These are people who never actually played bridge before, so we didn’t know them, and they weren’t our cousins or siblings or whatnot. They were people all over the world.
JOHN MCALLISTER: And what’s the teaching format?
MICHAEL XU: What we do is we go on Zoom. We have a lecture using Google Slides. And then after that, we go into breakout rooms to practice the lesson taught, and in each breakout room, we try to have one youth teacher in the breakout room mentoring the four students at their table. And we play on Bridge Base Online, and…yeah. And also, it’s really important for us to have a lot of help from other youth bridge player who already learned bridge and is willing to make the time to help mentor other youth bridge players.
JOHN MCALLISTER: What was the first lesson, or what was one of the early lessons that you remember?
MICHAEL XU: Well, so, we talked about what we need to open one more trump.
JOHN MCALLISTER: And how did you decide on that as a lesson topic?
MICHAEL XU: Well, that was actually later. We first began with declaring skills, how to do tricks and notrump, how to take tricks in trump. And eventually, we had to provide – to really start bidding well, we have to establish things. Right? And by establishing the notrump range of what has been notrump, that makes other bidding options logical. Now, you know a club, a spade, one no. If you know what one notrump means, you can guess, you can infer, you can understand logically why the rebid, the one notrump shows what it does.
JOHN MCALLISTER: So, what’s the dropout rate?
MICHAEL XU: [Laughter] I’m not too sure. I don’t pay too much attention to the data sheet, but we do definitely have dropout, and that’s expected. But we also do have a very good retention rate. From our first beginner bridge class after the first lesson, a few dropped out, but we still kept a large majority of the 30 students that initially came. After we finished our beginner bridge class and we did our intermediate bridge class, we kept about 80%, 90% of the students that stick with us through our beginner bridge class. So, we’re pretty happy with our retention rate, but we know there’s more – we can improve our teaching style. There’s a lot to improve, but we are pretty happy with our retention rate.
JOHN MCALLISTER: And how often are you guys meeting, or where are you meeting? I know you’ve got a big tournament coming up next week.
MICHAEL XU: Among us co-founders, we meet every Wednesday for about an hour or two on a Facebook Messenger call. With the students, we have lessons every Saturday, so we come teach at 4:00 p.m. Pacific Standard Time for the intermediate bridge class. We also have a beginner bridge class, which is 1:30 Pacific Time.
JOHN MCALLISTER: So, there’s a tournament. When’s the tournament?
MICHAEL XU: So, our youth – the first Youth Bridge Association Grand Online Tournament, it’s on December 19th, which is a Saturday. So, we have an opening ceremony at 12:30 to 1:00 p.m., and then after that, the actual tournament starts at 1:00 and lasts all the way to 3:30. And after 3:30, then we have our closing ceremony.
JOHN MCALLISTER: What is the opening ceremony and closing ceremony going to look like?
MICHAEL XU: In the opening ceremony, we will help people who don’t have partners to find their partner, and we will also talk about ethics and cheating and why it’s important to not do that. We also have fun trivia for people to enjoy while they wait for the tournament to begin. And, yeah, so it’s just like a way to touch base and make sure everybody knows what’s happening, if they have any questions they can ask, and maybe if they don’t know how to register for the tournament. And the closing ceremony, we will announce winners, give out prizes, and conduct a raffle.
JOHN MCALLISTER: And is there going to be a Zoom when there are people playing – are they going to be Zooming with their screen mates, or is it just going to be just on Bridge Base?
MICHAEL XU: It’ll just be on Bridge Base.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Do you think that there’s a chance that – have you gotten entries beforehand already? Are you starting to get entries before for the event?
MICHAEL XU: Oh –
JOHN MCALLISTER: Have people started signing up for the tournament?
MICHAEL XU: Yeah, yeah. We are getting a very good amount of people coming to sign up. So far, we have more than 60 youth players signing up from – I believe since the last time we checked, from about eight countries who have signed up for the tournament.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Wow. That’s amazing. Do you think there’s a chance any of your YBA proteges are going to be able to medal in the – isn’t there – there’s different classifications of the – are there different classifications of the event? I should know this. I’m sorry. I’m asking too many questions.
MICHAEL XU: Oh, no, no. Our tournament is stratified. We have a lower stratification, an upper stratification. For our lower stratification, it’s for people with less than one year of playing experience. I do think that some of our students from our classes have shown a lot of potential and definitely can take home first or second, third.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Yeah. And, I mean, 60 – who are all these – you’re not playing in the event, are you?
MICHAEL XU: [Laughter] No, I’m not.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Is Finn playing?
MICHAEL XU: He won’t be allowed to because – we have limited the event to players who can’t be on their country’s national team. But based on feedback, we actually maybe, in the future, plan on making another stratification that will allow these top-flight junior players to play. Yeah, so, we do appreciate all the feedback. We’re listening to them and thinking about how to incorporate them.
JOHN MCALLISTER: And in the stratifications, are they just going to be – so, the people with less than one year all are going to be playing against themselves?
MICHAEL XU: Yes.
JOHN MCALLISTER: I’m impressed, man. I think this is really – you know, SiVY's really – it makes me happy that SiVY exists because you guys are pumping out, really getting people into the game, these young people. And then, not only that, but now you’re paying it forward with doing this YBA, and it’s something – the reason this podcast even exists is because of my desire to make a movie about bridge, showcasing young people. And I’m really excited to have you doing what you’re doing because you can’t replace that, you know? Adults – it’s a different thing, adults teaching kids versus kids teaching kids.
MICHAEL XU: Yeah, exactly.
JOHN MCALLISTER: I’m really proud of you. I’m really proud that you’re taking this on and you’re seemingly doing a great job of it. You’re reaching out to Barbara Clark, Patty Tucker. Both of them forwarded me your email.
MICHAEL XU: [Laughter]
JOHN MCALLISTER: I mean, I don’t know how many – how many people did you email directly about the Grand Online Tournament?
MICHAEL XU: I’m not too sure. I tried to go find big youth bridge organizations I’ve heard of. I contacted the Bermuda Island Kids. We’ve contacted Seattle Next Generation, and yeah. We’ve just tried to contact these large youth bridge organizations and tell them about our event.
JOHN MCALLISTER: I’m psyched, man. I mean, it’s – you know, we’ve talked about this with Michael Rosenberg when I originally was trying to ask him to be on the show. He thought that I was saying, I was suggesting – wanting his opinion on whether or not I should invite you to be on the show.
MICHAEL XU: [Laughter]
JOHN MCALLISTER: And Michael Rosenberg, he’s your mentor.
MICHAEL XU: Yeah, exactly.
JOHN MCALLISTER: And you know, what he’s doing with the junior program, he gives his time very generously. I bet he’s really proud of what you’re doing.
MICHAEL XU: Yeah. It does mean a lot to me to try to give back for everything that Michael Rosenberg has done for me. And I really appreciate everything he’s done for me. I think the best way I could really pay it back is just by paying it forward, by doing what I can do to help promote youth bridge.
So, the thing about the Youth Bridge Association is I also want it to be like a way for other youth bridge players to help contribute in the fight for youth bridge. It’s a bit hard sometimes to try to go help out in the community if you’re not so sure where to go or what to do. And I really want my organization to be a way of connecting youth bridge players around the world, and help them take on the fight themselves, to support them as they start bridge clubs at their school, or just allowing them to – or just providing some paths for those students to mentor and just give back to the community that has given so much to us.
JOHN MCALLISTER: If you think about COVID and all the negatives about COVID, it’s easy to come up with a long list. But I think that this program is an example of one of the huge positives to come out of COVID, is just how virtual – how connected we can be virtually, and how this organization really is a result of a virtual initiative. And I think it’s – I can see it really being far-reaching based on your intention.
MICHAEL XU: Yeah, we really do hope to be able to connect not just the Bay area, or just California, or just America. We really hope our organization can extend beyond just our space, our physical space, and just be an organization for youth bridge in general. For just youth bridge players all around the world, in different countries.
JOHN MCALLISTER: What do your parents say about this?
MICHAEL XU: Oh, my parents, they’re not bridge players. And I usually don’t say much about it. I don’t really let my parents decide what I do in terms of my community service, right? If they want me to volunteer for something that I can’t find passion, I just can’t do it. So, yeah, they haven’t – my parents, they haven’t experienced the same things I have with youth bridge. For me, I just feel so much gratitude to the opportunities that I’ve been given through the United States Bridge [inaudible] Training Program, through Michael Rosenberg, through SiVY. And so, yeah, this organization is really my way to give back to the community, and my parents aren’t so much involved in this.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Are you being recruited by any collegiate bridge programs?
MICHAEL XU: [Laughter] I really wish colleges would do what they do with basketball and do it for bridge. Like, if you’re a good bridge player, they’ll come recruit you, and they’ll give you scholarship to come play at their college. But no, I haven’t been recruited myself. Colleges don’t have official collegiate bridge teams in the sense that the school makes money off of them.
But yeah, I’ve been trying to contact professors at colleges that play bridge to see if they have any advice for me to apply to these colleges.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Because I want to start a collegiate bridge program at my alma mater, the University of Virginia. And we would love to have you come here.
MICHAEL XU: Ooh! [Laughter]
JOHN MCALLISTER: But you’re going to be starting from scratch. Right now, there is one person who is a grad student who played on her college team at Trine University, but she’s the only person that the ACBL has on record in the student body as being a bridge player.
MICHAEL XU: [Laughter] That’s tough. Yeah, whichever college I end up going to, I definitely will try to make a bridge club that exists not only when I’m here but continues to exist long after I leave. So, that’s one of my goals in college, is to start a bridge club or make it stronger than before.
JOHN MCALLISTER: And your first choice is Harvard?
MICHAEL XU: [Laughter] Yes, Harvard is definitely a [inaudible] school of mine, but of course, there are so many – there’s a lot of really good schools, and Harvard – it’s very difficult to get into Harvard, of course. I definitely can’t expect to get in. But yeah, Harvard – I do think Harvard will be a great university to go to.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Where does Michael One want to go to school?
MICHAEL XU: Michael One. Well, Michael One wants to go to Harvard because Michael One...[laughter]. I don’t think our listeners know about this.
JOHN MCALLISTER: [Laughter]
MICHAEL XU: I don’t think they know about this joke. I don’t know how you know about this joke. John, how do you –
JOHN MCALLISTER: Steve Weinstein told me. So, Steve Weinstein comes out and plays – coaches a woman who lives in Michael’s area. And I think they get Michael and some of his other fellow junior friends to come play with and against them. And my understanding of the story – and this is – Steve hasn’t said this to me, but this is what I understand. So, there’s another junior – so, Michael Hu is also a SiVY kid. He’s also one of the founders of the YBA, and he’s been on a…bronze medal? You guys won the bronze medal – is that right?
MICHAEL XU: Yep, we were teammates.
JOHN MCALLISTER: On the bronze medal in the kids division of the Junior World Championships of Bridge. So, his name is Michael Hu, and your name is Michael – how do you – is your last name Xu? You say “zoo”?
MICHAEL XU: It’s “shuu,” but in English, it’s just “zoo.”
JOHN MCALLISTER: So, it’s Michael Hu and Michael Xu, and my guess is that Weinstein – that was just too close for him.
MICHAEL XU: [Laughter]
JOHN MCALLISTER: And so he started calling them Michael Hu Michael One, and Michael Xu Michael Two. But they both rhyme with “two,” so I don’t know how –
MICHAEL XU: [Laughter]
JOHN MCALLISTER: I don’t know how this – I don’t know. This is my guessing, my best guess. You tell me.
MICHAEL XU: So, among those junior players, we of course have friendly competition, right? And we want to be the best Michael there is, right? [Laughter] We just don’t think very hard because I have to go up against Michael Rosenberg, so many good Michaels. It was like, well, who’s Michael One and who’s Michael Two? Well, Michael Rosenberg is zero. He’s Michael Zero. He’s above us all. And so, it’s become a meme, really, like who’s one and who’s two. And it’s not really so much where we are right now, but who will become later. So, whoever’s one or two right now, that doesn’t mean it’ll be that way in the future. It’s just all about focusing on yourself and becoming the best bridge player you can be.
JOHN MCALLISTER: So, you’re saying that it’s not clear that you’re Michael Two and he’s Michael One.
MICHAEL XU: Yeah, yeah. We haven’t seen each other play in a long time, and of course, we also improve at different rates. And at different times – the rates change, too. Sometimes we’re busy. We hit a busy time in our lives that we can’t devote as much time to practicing. But I mean, Michael Hu’s a great friend of mine, and I’m really happy whenever he finds success at the bridge table.
I remember when I first started playing bridge, I looked up to him as a sort of role model in the sense that he’s already experienced some success in youth bridge. So, I put him as a target to try to be at his level. And then, once I’m at his level, then I can go on and continue my growth. But, yeah, there’s a lot of friendly competition among juniors because we all want to be the best. We all want to be the best bridge player ever.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Are you and Michael Hu on the same junior team for the –
MICHAEL XU: No, no. We are both on the U.S. National Team, though. There are two U.S. National Teams.
JOHN MCALLISTER: He’s on U.S.A. 2?
MICHAEL XU: Yeah, I have Finn. Finn’s too strong…[laughter]. You can’t be U.S.A. 2 if you have Finn on your team.
JOHN MCALLISTER: How did you and Finn become partners for the U.S.A. team trials?
MICHAEL XU: Well, this is an interesting story. Originally, I was going to play with somebody else, and Finn was going to play with somebody else. But then, there was drama. We’re still very young. We’re still teenagers. We still have, as I described in the Bridge Winners post a few years ago, we still have raging hormones in our bodies. So basically, there was some drama where some people might not have been most kind, and nobody was willing to be the bigger man and step up and apologize. And so, there was a lot of drama, and everybody on my team does tend to have strong personalities.
But Finn and I, we get along pretty well. We get along personally really well, and our teammates do, too. Somebody decided that this will be the best orientation. We believe that it’s important to trust and love your partner. You have to really respect them because if you don’t, it just becomes toxic. And even if you’re the better player – if you two are the better players on paper, if you guys start tilting each other, it’s not good. So, Finn and I, we get along very well, and so that’s why we decided to be partners.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Who do you think’s the favorite in the under 20s?
MICHAEL XU: Oh, I don’t know because I don’t really know the state of youth bridge in other countries. But I’m confident in our ability to medal, and I know that after college applications, I’m going to try to become another Finn Kolesnik.
JOHN MCALLISTER: When I interviewed him for the show, he was saying that it sounded like – he didn’t come out and say it, but he said that you – it sounded like you were busy doing other things while he was more focused on bridge at the time.
MICHAEL XU: Yeah, we are kind of different in our future goals. I’m not so sure I would want to be a bridge professional. [Laughter] And I’m focused on school, too, trying to get into top schools. So yeah, but once I’m in second semester senior year and all this bullshit’s all over, I will be able to play a lot more online tournaments and really start building up my bridge game at a fast rate.
JOHN MCALLISTER: So, some people who follow the show will know that you’re our intern. You do the initial research on our guests, you write up the show highlights. As far as being an intern, what are the benefits of being –
MICHAEL XU: [Laughter]
JOHN MCALLISTER: How many girls are coming up to you being like, “Oh my god, you’re Michael Xu from The Setting Trick!” Is it overwhelming? Tell us about that.
MICHAEL XU: Oh my god, you really did ask that question, J. Mac. You really did.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Because it’s true. You don’t want to talk about it. You don’t want the word to get out.
MICHAEL XU: What?
JOHN MCALLISTER: You don’t want the word – you don’t want people to know. You want to keep it on the down low, we say. You don’t want people to know the position that you’re in – all the inquires you’re receiving, all the DMs you’re getting.
MICHAEL XU: Well, to answer your question, I wish. [Laughter] I do have romantic interests but unfortunately, I don’t think my crushes know that I’m an intern for The Setting Trick. But do you know what? Now that you asked this, I might try to get Finn Kolesnik to be a wingman for me, like for him to go DM one of my crushes and be like, “Hey, there’s this awesome dude named Michael Xu. He’s the prestigious intern for The Setting Trick. You should totally go date him.” I might have to do that now.
JOHN MCALLISTER: So, your crushes don’t even know that you exist?
MICHAEL XU: Oh, no, no, they do. It’s just, I mean, I guess if they’re not really in the bridge world, they might not really know about The Setting Trick and stuff.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Yeah. So, you have some crushes that are not in the bridge world?
MICHAEL XU: Yeah, basically.
JOHN MCALLISTER: You’re so cute, man.
MICHAEL XU: [Laughter]
JOHN MCALLISTER: Let me say – so, I was in Las Vegas at the Las Vegas NABC, Summer of 2019. And there was a two-day pairs game starting. And Michael, you texted me I think that morning – that morning? Looking to play.
MICHAEL XU: [Laughter] Yeah, I did.
JOHN MCALLISTER: And I was so excited because I was going to go – I wanted to find a game. And I get this text from you. You’re really good, and it was really cool to get – and not in addition to you just being a good player, but I knew that you – I hadn’t played with you before, but I knew that you would be good because you’re in the junior program. You were on the team that won the bronze. You had to be good, so it was a really pleasant surprise to get that text, and it was a lot of fun to play with you. And we got to the second day, which was nice. And I think you’re – I admire how you carry yourself.
MICHAEL XU: Thank you. That’s something that – how I carry myself is something – I know I’m not a perfect human being. There’s things that I do that I shouldn’t do. I always try to be better than who I was before. I’m happy you said that, that I was a good bridge player, but I think that I’m not complete yet in my growth as a bridge player, and I really want to be better than – to be substantially better than I was before.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Do you remember that one hand where I put you in six spades?
MICHAEL XU: Six diamonds.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Six diamonds?
MICHAEL XU: Uh-huh. [Laughter] That was a ridiculous hand. [Laughter] I had seven diamonds, and you had two diamonds. And you had an ace, king, six of hearts and a stiff heart, and we needed hearts, three, three diamonds, two, two. And for them to maybe not be the club or something. [Laughter] For, six diamonds to make. And it happened, and they called it director because I hesitated. Apparently, I hesitated too long when I was thinking about whether I should continue trying for notrump or just sticking to five minor.
JOHN MCALLISTER: No, that’s not the one I was talking about. I’m talking about the one where the junior on your right false-carded.
MICHAEL XU: Oh, that one, yes. Ethan Wood I still remember that. I forgot exactly what the situation was, but –
JOHN MCALLISTER: He had stiff king offside.
MICHAEL XU: Yeah, yeah. Queen, jack, 10, fifth offset ace, nine, eight, fifth. And he played the king of diamonds to not show his queen of diamond on there. And when I counted up the points, I was like, I hoped for him to have the stiff king, but it turns out he didn’t. So, I played for the trump instead of the finesse because I trusted his false card. And I counted the points, and I was like, well, he must have the king for his open bid. So, that was not good.
JOHN MCALLISTER: So, how many boards are you playing in the YBA event?
MICHAEL XU: We haven’t completely finalized the details on that yet, but we know that we want it to last around from about two and a half hours.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Tell me about the work you’re doing for Samantha Punch.
MICHAEL XU: Ooh, you know, we try to convince people to come play bridge, and it’s a bit hard sometimes. Besides saying stuff like, “It’s the greatest game in the world” or, you know, “Kids play it,” it’s really hard to convince people to come play bridge. And so, when I found out about Samantha Punch’s research in the field of sociology of bridge, trying to find benefits of playing bridge, I got really excited because I was like, hey, I could come help her out on this research, find ways to explain the benefits of bridge. So, I reached out to her and contacted her, and I’m now doing research for bridge and mind sport for all. I actually found out about her research through you, John, through The Setting Trick when you guys interviewed her.
JOHN MCALLISTER: What kind of research are you doing?
MICHAEL XU: Right now, we are looking at cheating, and Sylvia Shi’s self-kibitzing post. So, we actually are looking at all the comments made by Bridge Winners. We’re stalking their comments, and we’re looking at them, we’re analyzing them. And we’re trying to find themes that emerge from all these comments, like how to prevent cheating, how to detect it, how to punish it, stuff like that. I hope I didn’t say too much about that. I’m pretty sure she doesn’t mind me telling people that.
JOHN MCALLISTER: You mean Sam?
MICHAEL XU: Yeah. I don’t think there should be a problem with that.
JOHN MCALLISTER: I’d like to have – I told you I’d like to have Sylvia on the show and ask her what she was doing. [Laughter]
MICHAEL XU: Yeah. [Laughter] Well, so, this is my personal belief: I believe that people should get second chances. I [inaudible] what she did. It’s horrible. But at least personally, I’m not going to say what other people should do. I’m just going to say that for me, personally, I believe in second chances a lot, and I really hope that Sylvia can redeem herself. I think one of the ways she can do that is if she comes and explains some things on The Setting Trick.
When I heard your suggestion about interviewing her, I was like, “J. Mac, you’re about to get cancelled.” But no, I do think it’s an idea worth thinking about, and I’m all for you doing that. You have my support.
JOHN MCALLISTER: So, our listeners might not know. You email Michael Rosenberg pretty regularly about bridge questions. When you talk about him being your mentor, it’s not a joke. He’s told me that – this was a couple of years ago – that he’d received over 5,000 emails from you. [Laughter]
MICHAEL XU: [Laughter]
JOHN MCALLISTER: How many times have you emailed Michael Rosenberg today?
MICHAEL XU: Oh, so, I love talking about my relationship with Michael Rosenberg. [Laughter] OK, I see. So, right now, he’s doing the online rules series on Bridge Winners, so he’s very busy with all that. And of course, I’m – and I recognize this, and I acknowledge this – I’m pretty insane with the amount of questions I ask. So, he’s asked me to limit the number of emails I send to him, which I completely understand. It’s still amazing that he’s willing to receive emails from me and the stuff I give him, all the questions asked.
Yeah, so today, I haven’t sent him any emails. I did send him one yesterday.
JOHN MCALLISTER: And what was the topic of the email yesterday?
MICHAEL XU: It’s like, I find a hand where I have a problem where I’m not sure, and I ask him what he thinks about it.
JOHN MCALLISTER: And did he respond?
MICHAEL XU: I think so. Yeah, I think he did respond. Yeah, I think I have to view this response and give him more questions to chew on.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Did you get it right at the table?
MICHAEL XU: That one? Well, it’s not so much about – so, the thing about me is I like to imagine slight changes to a hand. Even if on a certain hand, I didn’t have a problem, I like to imagine how the cards could change a little bit to give me a problem. So, sometimes, the questions I ask, I didn’t even have a problem in real life, but I still ask them because there’s still an area of uncertainty. So, to answer your question, no, because I actually didn’t experience the problem in real life. I just imagine that I could – if you preempted three spades with two spades, now, I feel like I have a problem here, so what do I do here? And I ask Michael what to do. [Laughter]
JOHN MCALLISTER: [Laughter]
MICHAEL XU: Yeah, so, I don’t only ask questions about things that happened in real life that I’m not sure about. I also purposefully try to imagine ways that I could have problems, and I ask questions about those. So, that kind of helps explain why I sent thousands of emails to Michael Rosenberg.
JOHN MCALLISTER: When you’re sending this volume of emails, has all just sense of sort of formality gone out the window? Do you still say, “Hi Michael?” Do you explain the problem? How much fluff is there in these emails?
MICHAEL XU: Yeah, so, I begin every email with “Hi Michael,” and I end it [inaudible] “Thanks, Michael.” [Laughter] But like, “Thanks,” comma, “Michael.” [Laughter]
JOHN MCALLISTER: Right. I know, it’s funny. I thought – yeah, I thought that was funny.
MICHAEL XU: So, yeah, I don’t have a lot of fluff because it’s just not practical. But we have our own language. At least, I say stuff to him to express ideas. When we’re talking about slam and whether we should do a slam, there’s a factor of having enough tricks and also having enough controls. And I like to call the question of the aspect of having enough tricks as having “meat.” I use that word “meat” to describe – the south have “meat” to build slam. [Laughter]
JOHN MCALLISTER: [Laughter]
MICHAEL XU: And another thing that I use with him is the “Kevin Test.” Kevin Rosenberg is his son, and I like the way of how he bids. I use him as the model for what is standard bidding. I ask, according to this Kevin Test, is the meaning of three notrump non-serious standard. So, basically, I’m asking if I was playing with Kevin, will I be able to expect him to believe that the notrump here is non-serious.
JOHN MCALLISTER: But you asked that question of Michael.
MICHAEL XU: Yeah.
JOHN MCALLISTER: How did Kevin become the standard, even though he’s not even the one who the question’s being asked of?
MICHAEL XU: I’m very fortunate to have Kevin agree to play with me a lot of times, and so I play with him quite a bit. He and I, we play Rosenberg standard. He said there’s a way that Rosenbergs play bridge. I’d [inaudible] conventions that they like, and I’ve been brought up on the Rosenberg side of bridge. So, I just use Kevin Rosenberg to [inaudible] Rosenberg. I do find myself liking what Kevin does a lot.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Yeah, I’ve played the NAOBC with Kevin.
MICHAEL XU: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Yeah, he’s good.
MICHAEL XU: Understatement.
JOHN MCALLISTER: He’s good at bridge. How often do you get to play with Michael?
MICHAEL XU: So, one of Michael’s rule is that he doesn’t play with non-clients because it wouldn’t be fair to his clients if he does that. So, I have only played with him in training sessions, and these are not favored for big events. My dream, my hope – one of my bridge dreams is that later in the future, when I become a very good player – I wouldn’t be considered high – I’ll be considered maybe a Zia Mahmood, right? [Laughter] Then, he will play with me not because I’m a client, but because I’m a good player that he wants to win with. I hope to play with him at Bermuda Bowl and win a Bermuda Bowl with him. He’s an absolute inspiration. He is my favorite person in the entire bridge world.
JOHN MCALLISTER: What is it about him that makes you say that, that makes you – why is he your favorite person in the bridge world?
MICHAEL XU: He’s just amazing. When he answers my questions, he answers them really well. He’s a good teacher. And I just feel so grateful for him. I am aware of the massive amount of time and effort he’s spent on me in answering all these emails, and I really appreciate that so much. It’s unbelievable. I really appreciate that. I really love him for that. It means a lot to me that he would be willing to spread this joy about the game to me, and to allow me to enjoy the game at a deeper level, to allow me to enjoy the intellectual mysteries of the game. It’s not just – one of the fairer things about him. When I post mortem with him in real life, just the way his eyes will sparkle when we’re discussing something interesting.
JOHN MCALLISTER: [Laughter]
MICHAEL XU: It’s so – his passion, his exuberance for what he’s doing. It’s so apparent. That reminds me of something. [Laughter] This actually reminds me of – so, when I asked him, when I emailed him to write me a recommendation letter for college, I asked Kevin to proofread it if I said anything inappropriate. Kevin said that…[laughter]…it sounded like I was trying to date his dad.
JOHN MCALLISTER: [Laughter]
MICHAEL XU: I read my email. I read my draft, and I was like, “Oh, shit. He’s right.” [Laughter]
JOHN MCALLISTER: [Laughter]
MICHAEL XU: But I was like, you know what? I’m not going to change it because he deserves it. You know? He deserves to know that I think highly of him, and I really think that he’s special.
JOHN MCALLISTER: [Laughter] Oh, my goodness. Are you willing to share that email with…[laughter]…The Setting Trick audience?
MICHAEL XU: [Laughter] Oh, maybe. I don’t think I said anything incriminating in that email, so, yeah. I’ll let you know. I’ll let you know if I’m willing to share that email. That juicy email.
JOHN MCALLISTER: I love that – the way his eyes will sparkle when he tells you something.
MICHAEL XU: Yeah, it’s such a good sight. It’s so pleasant.
JOHN MCALLISTER: You probably don’t get to see him as much. Maybe you see him in junior training. You see him in the Zoom, or wherever you guys are doing the Zoom.
MICHAEL XU: Oh, no, no. Right now, my group mentor is Adam Grossack, and he’s an amazing mentor. And I’m really lucky to be able to chat with him about hands on Google Hangout. I haven’t been able to talk with Michael face-to-face, or on these video calls. But I still have been emailing him pretty frequently.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Tell me more about Adam Grossack.
MICHAEL XU: I’m not the best person to say things about him because I don’t know him as well as somebody like Finn or Harrison [inaudible]. For me, it’s the Rosenbergs and a few others that I have very strong relationships.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Adam’s definitely been trained by Michael, I think it’s fair to say.
MICHAEL XU: Mm-hmm, yeah. Yeah, he has. It’s a funny dynamic. We sometimes will argue about what Michael would do in a situation. [Laughter] I’m like Michael Rosenberg’s new prodigy, if you will.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Protégé.
MICHAEL XU: But Adam was his protégé back then. Or, at least I think that’s what the case was. I’m not so sure, to be honest.
JOHN MCALLISTER: It amuses me that Michael and Zach Grossack play together now.
MICHAEL XU: Yeah, that was – I don’t know why, but I also find that pretty funny.
JOHN MCALLISTER: [Laughter] So, what’s your school like? You’re doing school virtually?
MICHAEL XU: It’s like – you know, I just don’t get A’s and stuff. It’s not something I’m really interested in because – I do it. It’s not that I don’t do it. I do care about it. I do try to be my best in school, but yeah, I really just don’t care enough about school to talk about it.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Do you think that it’ll be different in college?
MICHAEL XU: Probably because at college, I hope to get into a top university so that I can be surrounded by academic superstars. And I think at college, now that I will be specializing my education and really focusing on something, when I do that, I will now actually be able to use my education to actually impact the world. Right? Then, I think I will really make that a forefront of my life. Like, right now, I’m just doing what I can do for school. I’m getting the A’s. It might sound like I’m a bridge bum and I don’t do school, but the truth is I do do school. I could prioritize it more, but I probably will prioritize it more in college.
JOHN MCALLISTER: What’s it like being Finn’s partner and see him setting the world on fire like has in the last year?
MICHAEL XU: So, now that I really think about it, it’s pretty amazing that I’m playing with Finn. I have thought about it before, but now, it’s really starting to hit that I’m playing with probably the world’s most famous junior, or bridge-playing junior. As I told you, among the juniors, we’re all very competitive, right? And we all want to be the best. And I’m extremely happy about the success that Finn has.
To see somebody younger than me go out there and challenge these established great, old bridge players and have success doing that signals to me that even though I might not be that old, or I might not have that much experience, I can still go and find a lot of success in bridge. I want to be where Finn is in bridge, and I’m also happy for him for the success he’s experienced. Because I’m also very competitive, I obviously also want to be at the level where he is. And that’s what I’m focusing on, to be where Finn is right now and to be the next Finn.
JOHN MCALLISTER: So, you started playing at a SiVY – you went to a SiVY pizza party. What were the circumstances around that?
MICHAEL XU: So, my mom learned from a WeChat group about the SiVY pizza party event, and it was Sunday, and I really didn’t want to go, right? Because in my mind, I had this perception that bridge was this stupid little card game. It was bad. But then I was like, hey, there’s free pizza. I might as well just go. If I don’t enjoy it, at least I get free pizza. Yay.
And so, I went there, and that was one of the best decisions I’ve made in my life was to go to that pizza party. Debbie taught me the rules of the game – Debbie Rosenberg, she taught me the rules of the game. And, yeah, and then things took off from there. Yeah. So, I’m really grateful for SiVY because I know that without SiVY, I almost certainly would not have discovered bridge. And even if I did, I probably wouldn’t have had the necessary support to allow me to enjoy the game because that’s one of the things about bridge, in my opinion. It’s hard to get into it because the fun comes from where you understand it to the point to where you understand what you don’t know, or when you really appreciate how difficult it is. And SiVY was just there for me to take me to the point where I could really start enjoying the game for what it is.
JOHN MCALLISTER: So, did you – you went back the next week? Or what happened?
MICHAEL XU: The SiVY pizza parties are a month apart, so I went to another one after a month.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Did you play – OK, you went to the pizza party, learned the rules. Then what happened?
MICHAEL XU: I went to more pizza parties, and then Debbie started dragging me to play at club games. [Laughter] I’m really thankful for what she did, for what she does. And then, she told me about the Toronto National, 2017 Toronto National. And so, I went there. And by the way, at Toronto, I watched a screening of Double Dummy. So, the nationals really, really formed my identity as a bridge player. And I think I wrote about this in the Bridge Winners article, but you know what Morris Jones said in an episode of The Setting Trick? He said there’s magic at the nationals and that you’re able to – when you’re surrounded by your people. You’re surrounded by your community. You’re surrounded by people of the scoresheets talking in a language that only you [inaudible] understand.
JOHN MCALLISTER: [Laughter]
MICHAEL XU: It’s so magical. It’s just so magical for us to – I feel like I feed off the energy. I’m feeding off everybody’s passion for this game. It’s just such an amazing experience to be surrounded by people who think like me, who love this game the way I do, and just going to them. The nationals are such a great tournament. It’s amazing. And for me, it’s not necessarily about how prestigious the events are, necessarily. But something about that real-life aspect that these online nationals just lack.
OK, now I’m getting a bit political about all ideas, real-life bridge. But I think being able to play in real-life bridge is what really hooked me hard. And so, for the Youth Bridge Association, I’m trying to still provide that same sense of community online, virtually, which can be very hard. I believe in the importance of developing the connection with – I don’t know how to say this right now.
JOHN MCALLISTER: So, for listeners who want to support what you’re doing with the Youth Bridge Association, what would be your ask of them, if you could ask them to do one thing? Would it be to donate money? Would it be to tell their friends or their children about the opportunity? What would be – if you could speak to all of our listeners, what’s something that maybe they don’t even know that they could help you with?
MICHAEL XU: Yeah, that’s a good question, J. Mac. The Youth Bridge Association is really an idea of youth bridge players giving back to the community by teaching other youth bridge players. So, even if you don’t donate money to our organization, that’s not the only way to help us out. If you just teach somebody bridge, get them to come to our events, that will be great. That still means a lot.
Arthur will probably really want me to say this, so I’m going to say it. We do heavily rely on donations for our funding to be able to provide prizes for tournaments, and there is a lot of expenses to be had with having a website and premium Zoom and stuff like that. So, donations are super helpful.
If you’re not in a steady financial state, we need tournament directors to help direct the tournaments, and I’m very grateful to Aviv Shahaf – sorry about mispronouncing his name – for him volunteering to be our tournament director.
And in terms of what youth bridge players can do, if they could just come and volunteer to be a teacher, that means a lot. And for them to help give back to the community by teaching youth bridge players themselves, that’s something they could do that would mean a lot to me and to the community.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Have you tried using RealBridge for your sessions?
MICHAEL XU: We haven’t thought about that yet, but now that you mention it, we might do that because I’ve heard there were some good features about it. Yeah, we might do that.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Alright, anything else?
MICHAEL XU: Ooh, final thoughts.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Who’s better – you, or Kalita?
MICHAEL XU: [Laughter] You asked this question. Kalita.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Kalita?
MICHAEL XU: Maybe in ten years. We’ll see.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Kalita’s the fish, man. He’s a fish. He’s a fish.
MICHAEL XU: [Laughter]
JOHN MCALLISTER: He can play. I stopped asking the question because his partner…[laughter].
MICHAEL XU: Oh. [Laughter] I mean, what Michal did, I don’t think speaks on the character of Kalita. I don’t think what his partner did says anything about the integrity of Kalita.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Yeah, I didn’t – I mean, just haven’t been asking because of the – I didn’t want to bring him up because it’s just…I mean, I appreciate that Michael – the confession that he did. He did confess. Apparently, there’s a lot of people out there who did similar things who haven’t.
MICHAEL XU: Yeah, I guess the thing I would say to any listeners out there is to just not cheat. And the reason why you cannot cheat is really because – I did write a Bridge Winners post about it, so go read my Bridge Winners post about why to not cheat.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Are you wearing two sweaters?
MICHAEL XU: Yes, I am.
JOHN MCALLISTER: [Laughter]
MICHAEL XU: [Laughter] I get cold easily.
JOHN MCALLISTER: I see. OK. Two V-necks on my man, here.
MICHAEL XU: Mm-hmm.
JOHN MCALLISTER: I’ve never seen that before. I’ve never seen a double V-neck before, I don’t think.
MICHAEL XU: [Laughter]
JOHN MCALLISTER: How’s Bucky 6000, my man?
MICHAEL XU: Is that Andrew Chen?
JOHN MCALLISTER: Yeah.
MICHAEL XU: So, I’m not that connected right now to the younger generation of SiVY, so I’m not too sure about – I hope he’s doing well and that he’s proud of his success, and that he continues to aim higher. Maybe the youngest Grand Life Master.
JOHN MCALLISTER: How many masterpoints do you have?
MICHAEL XU: [Laughter] Oh, so funny. Right now, I have 400. I’m not Life Master yet, which is very funny. I’m like, 430 or something. And what SiVY does is we have a list – we have a plaque of our Life Masters.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Yeah.
MICHAEL XU: It’s really funny how all these younger-generation bridge players are beating this race, even though I started a bit earlier. I guess that’s because I don’t play – I don’t so much play a lot of tournaments. I try to make the most out of each tournament by asking a lot of questions on the sessions that I play in.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Is Kevsters on the Life Master plaque?
MICHAEL XU: Oh, he is definitely Life Master, of course, and he probably was the first…I actually don’t think he is on there because we start this after Kevin [inaudible] came a kind of established player.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Yeah. That’s a cool plaque to have, though, I think.
MICHAEL XU: Yeah, I think the first player on here is actually Michael Two. [Laughter]
JOHN MCALLISTER: Michael One. Does Michael One know that I call you Michael Two?
MICHAEL XU: I don’t think so. I don’t even know if he still remembers this joke or not. [Laughter]
JOHN MCALLISTER: Who’s Ron Karr?
MICHAEL XU: Oh, so, Ron Karr was my initial SiVY mentor. It got to the point where I started sending 10 emails a day of questions. And Ron Karr is amazing, but he stopped – he has other things to do, right? This is why I just appreciate Michael Rosenberg so much. I recognize how much of a superhuman effort he’s done in being able to answer the barrage of questions I have. I do acknowledge all the time and effort he’s put into mentoring me.
JOHN MCALLISTER: What kind of prizes do you have for this youth tournament?
MICHAEL XU: We have two different stratifications. In the lower stratification, we have I believe 40, 20, 10 – so, $40 to the first pair each, $20 to the second pair each, and $10 to the third pair each. And for the upper stratification, we’re doing $50 for first, $30 for second, and $15 for third. And for these top three, we’re also giving out one year of Bridge World subscription for free. And thank you for donating to the Bridge World prize fund and also to the YBA because we would not be able to do this without your support and your generous donations.
JOHN MCALLISTER: How did you come up with the money amounts?
MICHAEL XU: Just tried to follow something that was reasonable. We can’t give out $1,000. That’s insane. But $50 is something where we looked at our budget, we looked at how much money we have, and we thought, “This sounds reasonable.” It wasn’t a science. We didn’t set an algorithm to calculate the money amount.
JOHN MCALLISTER: You’ve got a sibling.
MICHAEL XU: Yeah, I have an older sibling. But unfortunately, nobody in my family plays bridge.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Well, you know, we can’t all be the Chens.
MICHAEL XU: [Laughter] Yeah, the [inaudible]. Oh yeah. Or the Grossacks, or the –
JOHN MCALLISTER: No, the Grossacks only have three – Jori, Zach, and Adam. Nobody else plays, I don’t think, in the fam. They don’t have a fourth. They have to play three-handed. The Chens have a full table.
MICHAEL XU: Oh, you mean Steve Chen.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Yeah.
MICHAEL XU: Oh, sorry, I was thinking – when you said Chen, for some reason I was thinking of Richard Jeng and Andrew Jeng.
JOHN MCALLISTER: No, no, no. Bucky 6 and 3,000.
MICHAEL XU: Yeah, yeah. That must be very cool to have enough players to just – perfect amount of players for the bridge table.
JOHN MCALLISTER: Alright, man. I’m ready to sign this thing off to end this mother.
MICHAEL XU: Can I give myself a shout-out?
JOHN MCALLISTER: OK, yeah.
MICHAEL XU: Remember to follow me on Bridge Winners for updates on the Youth Bridge Association [laughter] and other interesting articles.
JOHN MCALLISTER: [Laughter] OK. When we started this, just for everybody’s benefit, in Michael’s research of himself, he has 65 followers at the time of this recording. So, let’s see what we can do, Setting Trick listeners. Michael Xu. He’s outspoken. He’s done his own “In the Well.”
MICHAEL XU: [Laughter]
JOHN MCALLISTER: He’s written articles about youth players are aggressive bidders. They love conventions. Maybe we’ll get him to publish the full Michael Rosenberg email chain one of these days. Whether or not he has enough “meat” to do that, we don’t know. Anyway, it’s been a pleasure. I’m fortunate to have you as our intern, and thank you for what you’re doing for youth bridge. Michael, I’m really glad with what you’re doing, and thank you. Thank you as a bridge player. Thank you for doing it.
MICHAEL XU: Yeah. Thank you, too, John. Remember what I said about only doing things that I believe in, when we were talking about community service? I’ll let you make the connections on why I’m also interning for The Setting Trick.
JOHN MCALLISTER: There you go, buddy. That’s right.
MICHAEL XU: So thank you, John, for everything you’ve done, too.
JOHN MCALLISTER: I see the spark in your eyes, my friend. Alright. A bientot.
MICHAEL XU: Alright, thank you. Bye.