EPISODE 22: Jacob Freeman and Finn Kolesnik
Jacob Freeman (on the left), Finn Kolesnik (on the right)
Jacob Freeman and Finn Kolesnik are 20 and 16 years old respectively. They first proposed the idea of appearing on The Setting Trick, seemingly as a lark, at the 2019 Fall North American Bridge Championships. As the podcast’s founder and host, I was delighted that it mattered to them, and amused by being asked during a chance run in on a street corner!
Find out the amazing story about how these two teenagers put together the “amateur” F Kolesnik team, calling on four hall of famers each of whom are more than twice their age.
These two up-and-coming bridge players who have already found much success in the game. Even though they are both still teenagers, they made waves in the bridge world when they recently tied for first place in the inaugural NAOBC Knockout.
I got the chance to chat with them about both of their backgrounds and how they got into playing bridge. The two young men tell the story of how they became a team. I ask them about their thoughts on the future of Bridge and about their short-term and long-term goals.
After losing the first 30 minutes of our first recording session, Jacob and Finn were generous enough to chat with me for a second time. In this episode, I have put together both interviews so you as a listener can gain all the insight!
Show Notes:
Bridgewinners thread on Andrew Robson and David Gold bidding to 7 diamonds from 2017 Transnational Teams Playoff
Episode Highlights:
2:25 - How the Kolesnik Team came together
15:55 - Finn’s and Jacob’s favorite tournament
21:55 - Bob Hamman is a hilarious man
25:00 - Finn’s college and future plans
27:50 - Jacob’s future plans
34:25 - Finn and Jacob discusses co-championing in the NAOBC KO
42:30 - How Jacob and Finn met
46:05 - What it was like after realizing they tied for first and the celebration afterwards
50:25 - Hamman said sorry when Finn placed fourth in the Life Master Pairs
52:50 - How Finn and Jacob became so good at bridge
56:40 - Finn’s partnership with Michael Xu
1:00:10 - How Finn and Jacob work on their partnership
1:01:50 - How they decided to play together in the NAOBC
1:09:10 - Why John made Double Dummy and started this podcast!
1:14:55 - Funny story about Finn’s dad superstitious occurrences
1:15:40 - Finn and Jacob’s professional bridge scene
1:20:45 - Finn and Jacob’s youth international bridge plans
Transcript:
[00:02:19] John: So one of the things that we didn't get in the original episode was the explanation of how the Kolesnik team came together. Can we go back and will you guys tell us that story?
Finn: Yes. Jacob and I, we hadn't played in a little while, but we decided that we wanted to play in an event, trout playing again. Originally, we were going to play in something else. But we figured, well, why don't we try this one? We started looking for teammates, and Jacob, we're trying to figure out where to start. We thought of Bob Hammons, who else is better to build a team around. That's where we started. I called Bob and he said he'd be happy to team and Jacob talked to Bart. What was that like, Jacob?
Jacob: Bart was thrilled about the idea to team with us. He thought it was a great opportunity to mentor us a bit and was excited to team with Bob and Peter as well. Overall, it was just a great scenario and it paid off to reach out to these guys and invite them to team with us here, which I think we were a bit hesitant to do at the time.
John: How long between when you guys decided to call Bob, did it take Finn to actually call Bob up?
Jacob: Like a month or two. [chuckles]
Finn: Well, I think, probably more realistically, maybe five reminders from Jacob and I got there. That was like a week and a half. Jacob is very persistent. If he wants something to happen, he makes it happen.
[00:03:41] John: Why did you finally decide to make the call, what kept you from making it in the previous four reminders?
Finn: Well, it's like, it shouldn't be that way because Bob is such an easy guy to talk to, but sometimes you just work it up in your mind, like it's going to be all such a big deal, especially, you're worried he's gonna say no, or whatever, but I think you just have to just not think about it and go for it. Because it's not going to be bad even if they do you say no, or whatever.
John: Did you come right out and ask him?
Finn: Yes, yes, I told myself I'm going to call him. I dialed his number, and then I said, "Hey, Bob, you want a team in this?" and then he was like, "Sounds great, Finn." He made it a seamless experience.
John: Literally, like you said, in the same sentence, "Hey, Bob, do you want a team in this?" NAOBC knockout like that?
[crosstalk]
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Finn: It wasn't quite that quick. I said, "Hey, Bob, how's it going?" and then I asked him--
Jacob: He tried texting him first, but then realized Bob never responds to text. [laughter]
John: I actually spoke to Bob recently and I asked him to play in the Shaffer game with me and he was partially inspired by you two and so we're playing tomorrow night.
Jacob: Nice.
John: Yes. So thanks. Thanks for that. I've never played with him before.
Jacob: He wanted to avoid a field with me and Bart, how do you decide on tomorrow night?
John: I would like nothing more than for you and Bart to play me, that makes it that much more meaningful of a win.
Finn: Tomorrow is Friday night, I'll try to find somebody to partner with. [crosstalk] Jacob: Finn, want to play in that? We need to teach these guys a lesson.
Finn: Yes, sounds good.
John: Yes, when I saw the team, I thought it was fun. I thought that they gave it like a nod to you guys to make it Finn Kolesnik's team like that they were just being nice, but I didn't realize-- I was very surprised to find out that this was a team that you guys actually made happen.
Finn: They're all nice guys and they want the best for the youth bridge. I think we figured we'd try it out.
John: What did your dad say when you told them about this team? Jacob, I'm sorry. I don't know your dad, but I do know Finn's dad pretty well.
Finn: My dad, he thought it was really cool. He said, he was rooting for me the whole way through. It was great. My dad has known Bob for a long time back in Texas probably at least 20 years. I think Bob spoke to my dad about it or also actually.
[00:05:57] Jacob: My dad said Bob who? No, my dad knew who Bob was just from me talking about him a lot and saying how great a player and great a teammate he is. My dad was definitely happy for me and Finn to have that opportunity.
John: To who did you tell first, Finn? Did you tell Jacob or did you tell your dad that Bob was going to play with you guys?
Finn: Well, as Jacob kept on asking, I had to fill in Jacob first. I entered our team once I could, but I wasn't really in a rush to tell him about it. I figured I would tell
File name: Jacob-Finn-Sep10-Unedited-Recording-For-Transcription - 9_23_20, 10.48 AM.mp3 4
people about it once we won the event and not just that we entered a team. I didn't want to enter a team and say, "Wow, look at how great these teammates are." Then have the results be unexciting.
John: That's a result that I'd like to have on my resume, frankly, time for first, and the first-ever NABC online. I'm reaching out to someone as a potential partner for Double-Dummy to screen the film with her organization. Her organization works with the elderly. In the email that I initially reached out to her, I actually told her about, that you guys tied for first in this event, as a 17 and a 19 and an 82-year-old.
Finn: Oh yes, it is 16.
John: 16, excuse me. Rare are the games that bring together champions of such varied ages. It's an extraordinary accomplishment.
Finn: I felt like Jacob and I just played our game. We had some ups and downs, but I feel like when Jacob had a bad day, I played well and when I had a bad day, Jacob played well. I feel like we're never too bad. We tried to bring back solid scores and let our teammates do the heavy lifting.
John: What's a bad day for you guys? For one of you guys?
Finn: You mean number of mistakes, or what do you mean?
John: You said, when Jacob had a bad day you played well, or when you had a bad day, Jacob played well. What's a bad day at this point?
Jacob: I think that kind of depended on who we were facing as well. There were sometimes where we wouldn't play up to our potential, but we'd still end up coming out with a big pick up that set. Then there were other times where we played well and we ended up dropping several limbs that set. For us, the bad day was more measured in mistakes than actual performance. We knew when we made a big mistake. It was probably a couple of those a set would be considered a bad day for us. But-
Finn: Yes, I agree. To me, it's how big the mistake is because there's some hands where it's like, I mess something up but it's a really minor inference that I missed. Or it's like, I did something that's a little bit wrong and maybe it worked out really poorly but it's minor enough. I don't take it too hard. When I miss something that either I'm playing too quickly, or I fall asleep in the middle of the hand, or I miss something for whatever reason that I shouldn't have. That's what makes me feel I had a really bad day. Jacob and I were playing in a match yesterday against a good team. We had three kind of bad scores, but all of the hands that we had bad scores on Jacob and I made pretty reasonable actions at every turn so I didn't feel too bad about it.
Jacob: We had good teammates.
Finn: Yes, we won by 33, we chose well on our teammates.
John: Another amateur team?
[00:10:02] Finn: Playing with two Israeli juniors.
John: In what event?
Jacob: The Bridge House World Championships
John: You guys Four-Handed?
Finn: We Seven-Handed.
Jacob: We were seven.
John: What are the Israeli juniors' names?
Finn: Asaf and Amir.
John: They beat us in the Reynold's knockout, those guys, I think.
Finn: Yes, they're good. They play well. It's been nice teaming with them. They've played two matches so far and they've had very good sets both times.
Jacob: Yes. I had the opportunity to team with them when I was playing with Les Molios in the OCBL at the beginning of the year. They had really good sets, and I enjoyed it. They were great teammates. It's nice to team with them for another event.
John: Who's the rest of your team?
Finn: Katherine Mae Todd, David Gurvich, and Dennis Bild.
John: Dennis Bilda.
Finn: Is it? Did I mispronounce it?
John: Yes.
Finn: Okay, Bilda.
John: Wow. I wasn't expecting to hear-- I think Katherine approached me about co-sponsoring this team.
Finn: Yes, it's a spread-out team. It's a lot of different walks of life. John: Who's Dennis playing with?
Finn: He's mostly playing with Katherine, I think. I think Dennis and Katherine and David are all doing some rotations and stuff. It's not so clear.
John: This is like the event that lasted --
Finn: It lasts a month, yes.
John: Yes. How many matches do you play in the qualifying?
Finn: I think we're planning on playing once a week for sure and maybe another half a match or 20 boards either playing together or playing with David or Dennis. Otherwise, just depending on how free we are.
John: You two are just playing with each other?
Finn: Well, mostly, but sometimes I think Jacob and I are planning on playing a set or two with David or Dennis maybe.
Jacob: When our schedules don't align, we might split up and play with other players on the team.
John: How many matches are there before they go to knockout?
Jacob: I don't have a clue. Let me check right now.
Finn: We've been very relaxed about this event. We're just playing some matches, having fun. We're not super worried about it. We've got a great start. We won by 37 and 33 so I think we're basically tied for first right now.
John: Who did you beat by 33?
Finn: Compton and Andy Goodman, Joel Woolridge, and David Granger. Our teammates were the ones we beat by 37. We beat someone who was on your podcast-- two people that were on your podcast. Dave Caprera. No, Dave Caprera and Ann. Samantha Punch was playing with-- I don't quite remember his name.
John: Steven Pinkerton, I think.
Finn: Yes, and the Sprungs.
John: Aha, a mixed team. There in the wrong event.
Jacob: There's 14 rounds in total.
Finn: Did you play in the Transnational just last year? No?
John: No. I played in the Transnationals in Lille and we finished 10th. I played with Simon and Simon and Fordin was my partner. We were at table one with two rounds to go. The top eight make the knockouts.
Finn: I see.
[00:13:27] John: I had a great attitude at that event, actually. I had a totally great attitude and it really helped.
Finn: Do you still have that attitude now or have you shifted negatively?
John: I don't have it all the time. I definitely don't have it all the time. Simon and Simon and Peter, those guys are really like, they can do it. I was, just bringing my best mentality to the table. Peter Perdin was complaining about the conditions of contest, that only the top eight made it. And granted we weren't part of the top eight, but I didn't let that get me down.
Jacob: It's definitely a good attitude to go in with. I'm hoping there will be an opportunity in the future for Finn and I to participate in these events at some point. We haven't really had much, or at least I haven't had much, experience playing in world opening competitions in the Europeans and Cavendish and whatnot. We're hoping to maybe try this some more in the future.
John: Yes, man. They're great events.
John: It looks like they qualified 32 in this last Transnationals. I was just taking a look and Wohon qualified 32. You guys would have been comfortably in.
John: Really? They qualified 32?
Finn: Yes. Although it's possible there are a lot more teams. I'm not sure how many teams there were.
John: I think there was 120 teams in our event.
Jacob: There was 118 in this one.
Finn: Well, qualifying 8 out of 120 is pretty steep.
John: This was the event where Andrew Robson bid seven diamonds in the final of the-- They had a stain in auction, his partner opened a notrump and he transferred-- him and David gold transferred and then bid diamonds. He had King Queen Jack of diamonds and the only makeable grand slam was seven diamonds. Did you guys ever see that?
Finn: No. I started playing bridge in 2017. Any famous hands that aren’t super famous enough to be famous through time I haven't heard of.
John: Well, I'm going to put that in the show notes and I'll also send it in to you. Finn: Okay.
Jacob: Sounds good.
John: Jacob, you had a series of questions and that you-- talking points. I'm going to hand over the hosting duties to you now.
Jacob: Sounds good.
John: Actually, you wrote some of the questions here in the Facebook chat. One of them is what tourneys are your favorite?
Jacob: I think probably the Vegas Nationals was my favorite so far, but Finn you want to weigh in on here?
Finn: Oh, you just mean locations of US Nationals or type of tournament?
Jacob: This was too long ago.
[00:16:01] Finn: My favorite tournaments, I think the US Nationals are definitely my favorite. I liked being at the European championships last summer, but it's not the same because I don't know nearly as many people. The events are great, but it just doesn't feel as special. I played in the Transnational mid 21 world championships and I like that, but definitely I still like the Nationals more. I just have way more friends and I like the events more.
Jacob: Yes. The worlds are certainly a cool experience as well. I haven't been to any of the European tournaments. I imagine the field's quite strong there.
Finn: Yes. It's strong, but you don't know who's strong and who's not as well because there's a lot of these long names.
John: There's a lot of people and just at the table, I don't recognize the people. I know who to fear in the United States. Maybe I shouldn't have that mentality.
Finn: John, how you play, people should be fearing you, not the other way around.
Jacob: That three no trump controud. (chuckles)
Finn: Well, that doesn't even count yet. He had such bad opponents that he can't even brag about that one.
John: I'm trying to think what the other hands who played against you were.
Jacob: I just looked at the other two. They were both pushed forward. They couldn't have been too interesting because everybody had the same score. Finn, who's on your team for the Cavendish? If you've had to make your team right now, anyone you want, who's on it?
Finn: All right. Jacob, I'll think about mine. Why don't you answer first?
Jacob: Well, I think I'd probably have to give with the same team as the online NABC.
Finn: Because that's your only undefeated team.?
Jacob: Yes.
Finn: All right. Yes. That makes sense. It sounds good.
John: Is the Cavendish, are they actually think that they're going to have it? Is that why you ask about that one specifically?
Jacob: Yes.
John: They think they're going to have it in person?
Jacob: I think they're planning on doing it in person. I don't know what their people will end up going to it or what the field's going to look like, but yes.
John: That was the last tournament that they actually had- big tournament that they had before the world shutdown.
Finn: I guess it's like the cabinet, not the European winter games. [crosstalk]
John: Yes. The Winter Games.
Finn: People made it sound like it was weird being there and stuff, at the Winter Games with the situation.
John: Yes. I remember thinking it was weird.
Finn: I went to my last tournament in Tucson which was mid-March, like March 10th. It was right when things were coming up. When I got there, the handshakes had decreased and people were using hand sanitizer. I found out later that I actually played against someone who had coronavirus at the tournament which was pretty weird.
Jacob: I went to the Vancouver regional, which was right before Tucson. I feel like it was just before people started to become aware of this. We still went out to restaurants and there wasn't really much awareness of COVID then. It's interesting to see how the situation has changed so much back then, especially in a two-week period.
Finn: At that point, we still thought that we're probably going to have the Spring Nationals. Every day that passed, it started looking less and less we're going to have Spring Nationals which was sad. Jacob and I were going to play for, I think, eight days of the Spring Nationals.
Jacob: Yes. I think that's how we ended up deciding to play in this online NABC was, we had intended to play in Columbus together and we wanted to schedule another tournament in place of that.
John: Do you know if they're going to have, what they're going to do for the Fall Nationals, if it's going to be different than just the pair event knockout? Are they going to have the rising?
Finn: Well, I would hope that they do it differently, I guess. They put it in the schedule on ACVL. They have online scheduled events, 2020, but it's subject to change. So far, they're going to do it like they did last time, but there's still over 2.5 months, so they could easily change it and do something different. Especially they only announced the Summer one, two or three weeks before the event started. I don't think that they care about letting people know as soon as possible.
John: Are you guys both living at home?
Finn: Yes, I'm living at home. What about you Jacob?
Jacob: I'm at school right now. It's all online, but we all just came to the campus just in case it returns to class at some point.
John: What's the name of the school where you are Jacob?
Jacob: Western University. It's one of the biggest schools in Canada, but US people only know U of T and McGill and whatnot.
John: Do you guys have sports teams?
[00:21:00] Jacob: We do, but all of the Canadian universities sports competitions are within the Canadian-- It's not connected to the US NCAA program.
Finn: Do you have any roommates, Jacob? Are you living by yourself?
Jacob: I have three roommates. Not roommates, housemates.
Finn: Yes, housemates. That's probably fun being able to hang out with them. That's what my sister is doing. She goes to college in Claremont which is Southern California a little bit, more south of LA. There's no in-person classes, but she's living in Claremont with I think, five of her friends at a house. I think it's good for her, even though it's not in-person, to be around other people at the college.
Jacob: We've actually already started planning a bit for the Fall online NABC, so we're hoping to have the same success there.
John: Can you elaborate on that?
Finn: I talked to Bob and Bart about maybe playing on the same team. Bob, it was a little bit too early for him he said, but he sounded like he was somewhat interested. Bart said he was definitely interested, so hopefully we'll be able to play on the same team. Bob, he gave me a funny answer, he said, "I wouldn't object to it, but three months in the future is too much for an old guy like me."
John: Bob is a hilarious guy man. That guy has lived a life, I mean the stories that he has. He was telling me the other day about some guy who was like-- You can't make up the stuff. [laughs] I was wishing that I was recording it for this podcast because he's just such a-- He was a gambler and Bob made him out to be somewhat of a degenerate, but he became a minister so that he could get a Bingo License in Oregon.
Then he tells the story that some guy showed up in a three-piece suit at his Bingo event, and that was like the first sign of caution. The guy asked him, he said, "Are you so and so?" "Instead of saying, "No, I think he just left a couple of minutes ago." I told him that I in fact, was that person and he goes, "You have the right to remain silent."
Finn: That was one thing that made me a little bit sad. Teaming with them in the online NABC, I talked to them on the phone a little bit, but playing on that team in person, you get to hear so many great stories. I haven't talked to Kid as much, but talking to Peter, Bart and Bob, they all have so many great stories from the past. I love hearing them, but it's not the same talking with them on the phone. Last year at a regional, I got to talk to Bob at dinner and listen to his stories. I've never had any experiences like that, it was amazing.
Jacob: Something I've learned recently actually was that Bob Hamman, he was portrayed in a movie by Dustin Hoffman. I'm not sure.
John: Oh yes.
Jacob: Did you see The Program, Finn?
Finn: No. I haven't heard that.
Jacob: It's about Lance Armstrong because his company did some work with Lance and his sponsors. It was cool to see Hamman being portrayed in that.
Finn: Was he portrayed well?
Jacob: I was just paying attention to how cool it was to see someone we teamed with in a movie, for being portrayed.
Finn: What's the name of the movie?
Jacob: The Program.
Finn: Did they incorporate any of his bridge playing into the movie or what was it just Mr. CEO, Bob Hamman?
Jacob: They did mention that he was a famous bridge player.
Finn: Nice. Did he look like Bob at all?
Jacob: Not really, no. Maybe at one point.
John: Finn where do you think you want to go to college?
Finn: I haven't thought about it at all. Now, that I'm a junior in high school, that's what everybody asks me, but I definitely haven't thought about it at all.
John: I don't think Joe Grue graduated from college. You think you're on the same trajectory as Joe?
Finn: Hopefully, bridge playing-wise, yes, but I do plan on graduating college and then maybe try playing bridge.
John: Isn't your dad a college professor too?
Finn: He is, yes. Both my parents are. My mom teaches English at the community college and my dad teaches math. They both, yes.
John: Is the fact that you want to go to college more a reflection of they want you to graduate from college or do you actually want to graduate from college yourself?
Finn: It's a combination, man.
Jacob: I'm going to weigh in here because like a month ago, Finn was talking about not going to college once he graduates high school, and just playing professional bridge. His views have definitely changed over the past month or two maybe.
John: Maybe Jacob, he's just he's playing politically correct here because he knows his parents might listen to this.
Jacob: Maybe I wasn't supposed to say that then.
Finn: No, that's fine. I'm not sure because if I plan on playing bridge after college anyway, it's always like, "What's the--" I do think it's worthwhile especially with my parents influence.
[00:26:22] John: As you guys can see, I'm wearing a University of Virginia hat. I went to the University of Virginia because I was such a-- I was going to go to college, but I went to the University of Virginia because I grew up in Charlottesville and I was such a fan of their sports teams so I couldn't imagine going anywhere else.
Finn: Maybe if there were some good bridge teams at the colleges, then. The problem with the collegiate teams is they have the collegiate championships at the Summer Nationals during another event. Even if I joined a college bridge team, I would never pass up playing in a national event to play in the collegiate.
John: Kevin Rosenberg did. Maybe he wasn't getting hired so much at that time, but he was playing.
Finn: Kevin Rosenberg, he is incredibly good at bridge, but he's not a pro bridge player full-time, he has a regular job and he plays some pro bridge on the side. It's a little bit different I think. If I was playing still playing bridge full-time, then the Summer Nationals would be a sizable thing. It wouldn't make too much sense, I don't think. I like competing against the best and I think it would be nice to play on the collegiate team, but I think it's a better experience to try to compete for events.
John: Jacob, do you think about dropping out?
Jacob: I thought about taking this year off school because how my program's structured, I would have been able to do that since I do two years in an economics degree, then two years in an honors of business administration program. In between, you can take a gap year, but how it worked out, my plans changed a lot. I didn't see much benefit from taking this year off. Depending on where I'm at in a couple of years, playing professional bridge. Then if my game improves and my partnership with Finn or someone else continues to grow, and depending on what Finn does at that point as well.
Finn: Jacob, he's a great bridge player, but he's even better at making deals and stuff. He's excellent at that. He makes things happen.
John: You could be a sponsor one day?
Finn: That's the goal.
John: You could have a ridiculous team with Jacob as a playing sponsor.
Finn: That's what my mom has told me. My mom has told me, Jacob, he's getting his Business degree. He's going to make the big bucks and then he's going to hire himself the five best players in the game.
Jacob: I think, probably the longevity of the professional bridge career right now isn't going to be around. I think we're going to see careers in bridge still be possible, but it's going to transition to looking a bit differently.
Finn: Yes, I agree. Right now in the US, specifically in the US, because in other countries, it may not change that much but specifically in the US having pros travel to regionals every week to play pro. It's great for them right now but the regionals are getting smaller. It's not necessarily going to work out that way long term. For the best players in the game, I don't think the game is going to die. There'll also be a way to play pro, is my opinion.
Jacob: I think that's affected my decision a lot about going to school and getting a Business degree before I decide to play any professional bridge if I were to do that at some point.
John: Just like the question of whether or not you can really make a good living as a professional bridge player 10, 20 years from now is very much in doubt.
Jacob: Yes. John, what events are you playing in next, other than the Shaffer game?
John: I was talking to some former teammates of mine about the online NABC. They're looking to get hired and they're fun to play with.
[00:30:02] Jacob: You're looking to finish second in that?
John: I would be delighted to finish second.
Jacob: All right, we'll see you in the finals.
[chuckle]
John: Coming 10th in the Transnationals is right up there for me in terms of my best results.
Finn: All right. Well, you'll have better results in the online NABC then.
John: Well, okay. You guys are just the prognosticators.
Finn: We're the cheerleaders for you, John. We're rooting for you.
John: You are going to bless me with this great result. Anyway, thanks for coming. Thanks for coming together. You guys make me look good because you guys just have great stuff to share and talk about and you're interesting. Anything else you guys want to add before we finish up here?
Finn: I don't think so. Jacob and I are looking forward to beating you in the Shaffer game tomorrow night. Hopefully, we'll have a good round against you guys to cement it but we'll have to see. Are you and Bob playing Flannery?
John: We're going to start talking in an hour and 15 minutes before game time. I've never played Flannery before, I don't think.
Finn: Are you going to play with Bob?
John: If he wants to, sure. Why not? Steve Weinstein likes it.
[00:31:12] Finn: I play Flannery with Bart. It's a new experience. The first time I played with him, two diamonds and then Bart realized based on the auction that I'd forgotten Flannery, so we were still able to bid up to five diamonds after open two diamonds. That was fun.
Jacob: I have a similar Flannery story that is, playing with Boris Ferran. Do you know him, John?
John: Yes. I do know Boris. He was friends with Middleman.
Jacob: A really nice guy. He can be a bit intimidating to play with but he loves Flannery and insisted on playing Flannery. I opened two diamonds, on the first standout. I never had played Flannery before, so I was definitely going to forget this. I had diamonds shockingly, he bid two no trump, I bid three diamonds. He bid 3 hearts. I bid four diamonds. He bid four hearts. Then I gave up and passed with my singleton heart.
I was hoping by now he would have got the message that I had forgotten Flannery. Anyway, so he had like three or four hearts himself and we were favorable on the hand. It ended up being great save because they were called for four hearts. It was like win five or something.
John: I was watching when Bob addresses the team Double Dummy, the footage and he says that the worst trump to make a slam is-- It's like two doubletons. You can make a slam with two doubletons in a trump suit but has to be ace anyway.
Finn: Have you read Adventures In Card Play, John?
John: Yes.I just started going through it again, actually.
Finn: If you read Adventures In Card Play, I think there's a few ones like that. I've been enjoying the book. I've had it for a while, but I don't have that much time to read. Whenever I read it, I have to go pretty slowly to really understand all the positions, it takes a lot of time. You can't just read 50 pages of the book without being completely exhausted. So I've been slowly enjoying the book. I like it.
John: All right, guys. This has been great.
Finn: All right. Bye, John. Talk soon.
John: See you guys later.
Finn: Bye.
[00:33:22]
John: I'm with two rising star junior bridge players Finn Kolesnik and Jacob Freeman. How do you- like, it kind of doesn't roll off the tongue, you know, like, it's very easy to say, well, we won the event, or I got second in the event. But, like, what's it like, how do you say that you tied the, the NAOBC knockout?
Finn: I-I say that we-we won the event along with, um, the Levine team. I mean, I-- It to me, it's winning the event.
Jacob: We were co-champions of the event.
John: Co-champions. Hmm. Hmm. Who was the first person that- that you called?
Finn: Well, the first person I called, I mean, Jacob and I were talking most of the time but- but Bob gave me a call right after. So Bob, he is, um, he's incredibly smart, but he's not so good at the technology part of it. So, John, sorry, Bob was, um, on BBO and he saw the M-tally on there. And he tallied them up and he said, "We won by one Finn, we picked out 13 IMPS this set. And I said, "Well, ac-- actually Bob, um, it-- We picked up 12 IMPS. So we tied." He said, "No, I counted 13." So-So-So he-he started recounting and- eventually he counted to 12, and he said, "Holy shit, we tied." [laughs]
John: So this is the-- Was it-- Was the vamping showed on delayed Vugraph, so you weren't getting your actual scores at the end of the--
Finn: Yeah. So it was on Delayed Vugraph, but we can go to My Hands on BBO and check the result, right is it-- is-released. or [crosstalk] they would call us and tell us the result.
John: Hmm. Hmm. So what was it like for you guys watching, you know, you're- you're sitting out this fourth quarter, you're stuck, like-- Was it 33 with four boards to go?
Finn: Well, the journey was, it was not as-- Jacob and I were not nervous because we had sat out the last three days, in the final quarter, and we had been watching them. I think they were down at least two of the nights. One of the nights they might have-- I think they were down all three of the nights going into the last quarter. And, you know, the two pairs that they're playing against each night were all world-class.
So, we-- you know, we have great teammates, but it's hard to be confident that your teammates are definitely going to beat four of the best players in the world down some number of IMPS. But three nights in a row, they had won, you know. Every night Bob and Peter had to just had amazing sets and Kit and Bart were really solid and they beat their slams that they play this great relay system so they were able to get through a lot of good slams. And it-- you know, by the-- by that night we were just like, you know, if-if we lose it we- this has been ridiculous. But we were pretty sure they were gonna win.
[00:36:28] Jacob: Yeah, that said, I think with about five IMPS to go on the delayed Vugraph, I called Finn, and I was like, yeah, there's like no chance here. [chuckles] We have stuck 28 IMPS at that point or something. And I-I-I-- like we had so much faith in, our teammates after what they've done the last few nights at this point. But, like, you just need to be dealt the hands to pick up 28 IMPS, and sometimes you're just not dealt those hands against top players in the world. But they made the hands so it was amazing to see the final five scores come in and realize that somehow they managed to tie and pick up 28 IMPS against Meckwell and Helgemo in the last five hands, or four hands.
John: How did it like it looked like I looked at the- the- the couple of days? You guys were playing the first two. How did you come to, -- How did you decide the lineups?
Finn: I was captaining the team and I was corresponding with them. The situation was-- is we're on every day we-we do a rotation. So the first three sets every-every pair plays two matches. And then the fourth set we put in who we think is playing well or who wants to play. You know, with some teams that- that philosophy with whoever's playing well might go badly but everybody on our team was happy to, you know, sit out or, nobody was-- it was- it was- it was never an issue.
So, um. The-the first night the-the Thursday night was the only night it was up in the air whether Jacob and I would play the fourth quarter because Kit and Bart had some bad luck earlier and Jacob and I were feeling good so we were con-- considering playing but, you know, we decided for the fourth quarter, we should just put our two most experienced pairs in. So when we want to win, I-I have a lot of confidence in Ja-- with-with-- in Jacob and me, but I think that it wasn't the best decision to put us in.
Jacob: Yeah, I-I-I think teaming with, these four hall of famer teammates who had established partnerships, part of the opportunity he was having them, play in the fourth quarter in after they, managed to come back against the Gupta team. We've just felt they kind of deserve to keep playing in the fourth quarters after this, for the rest of the matches, assuming they wanted to, and they just kept, kept winning in the fourth. So it was amazing to watch.
John: When I- When I saw your name on the team Finn I thought it was sort of like the- the old guys kind of like just did it as sort of a nod to you, but you were telling us earlier that you and Jacob really put this team together.
Finn: Yeah, yeah. Jacob and I put the team together. I called Bob and asked him if you want to play, on the team of Jacob and I. And Bob said, "Sure."
John: [chuckles] Did Bob know there was an NABC online knockout coming up when you called him?
Finn: I don't think so. Because when I-- when we asked them actually, it hadn't, like, super officially been released. Everybody knew that it was coming because they put it on like on Bridge Winners, there are some threads that suggested that this was happening. But the ACBL hadn't released that it was coming. But Jacob and I, you know, we- we really wanted to go in with the team we were happy with and going in a fun team. So we were trying to put it together as early as possible, so we'd have time.
John: And Jacob you were- you were kind of egging Finn on to call Bob. Tell us about that.
Jacob: Yeah, I think about a month before the event, me and Finn had talked about what the, optimal situation was in terms of teammates for us and we came up with Bob, Peter, Kit, and Bart. So I-I-I at one point called Bart and asked if him and Kit would be interested I- I-I kind of suggested Finn call Bob. And it-- there is nothing that could go wrong by asking since Finn and I were jun-- are-are juniors they're not gonna be rude about it. So it couldn't really hurt and Bob and Peter were very respectful and decided to agree to mentor us in this event so--
Finn: Well, to be clear these people if anybody asked them to team that they're incredibly nice guys. They would not be rude to anyone.
[laughter]
Finn: Peter was the one person that I didn't really know before this event. I have played with Bart before and teamed, , with Bob, um, at a-- In a regional event at the nationals and--
Jacob: In San Fran yeah.
Finn: And I played with Kit online before. also. So I-I knew all three of them but Peter I hadn't met. Peter was, you know, very friendly and, um, I learned his sleep schedule. He goes to bed at 3:00 AM every night. and he said, "Feel free to give me a call at 2:00 AM. If you-if you have anything you want to talk about or ask about." [laughs] Um, so I-I really enjoyed meeting Peter.
[00:41:09] John: Tell me about the conversation with Bob. Had you ever called Bob on the phone before?
Finn: I talked with him a little bit. Um, Bob called me on my birthday to wish me a happy birthday. Um, and I think, you know, we were talking a little bit but I don't really-- Bob really just likes to talk on the phone. He's not like an email guy. He-he answers emails quickly but he's super charismatic and sociable and he likes to talk to people. So, that-that's how we've been in contact before.
John: And so did you just get right to it when you called him up about the-
Finn: Yeah. Yeah. I just said, "Hey-hey Bob, would you be interested in-in teaming with me and Jacob? I think it would be really fun if you wanted to team", and he said, "Yes, I'd love to." You know, that was- that was exactly what I wanted to hear. You know, I was-I was nervous and hyping myself up, "Do it, do it, do it." And then and-and Bob came out saying that. So that was nice.
John: Did you have to say this is Finn Kolesnik when you-- when he answered?
Finn: I didn't. He said, "Hey Finn." I can't-I can't imitate his voice very well but it sounds something like that.
John: Were you guys doing Zooms, after every segment, as a team?
Finn: No. I was calling them. I think Jacob might've been calling them or messaging with Peter but doing the Zoom with them, um, I'm sure they all wanted to get to doing other things and-and getting all of them- them on Zoom would have been difficult. Kit and Bart are both good at Zoom but Peter and Bob had some technical difficulties along the way.
John: So Jacob, tell us again about, , this-- When you saw Finn at the- at the Toronto NABC and went up to him.
Jacob: Yeah. So the first time I met Finn, he was playing in a gold rush game at the nationals with his mother and I was playing in, the same game with my father. And I think, Finn and his mom ended up getting like 65% average that, day and maybe winning or coming second or something like that. And I was trying to expand the number of junior partners I had to learn from.
So I went up after, congratulated him on the good game and asked if he wanted to play on BBO sometime. And we exchanged contact information and, the rest is kind of history. I think at the Philadelphia nationals, the next year we saw each other there and communicated a lot and Finn did really well in that. So then we agreed to play together in the Memphis Nationals, the following spring. Finn, you wanna add on there?
Finn: Yeah. So I-I think we agreed to play in the Memphis Nationals, , after, you know, talking about it. I, you know, we'd played in the Kingston regional. We didn't play together but we played on a team and I think we might've played one segment together. So-
Jacob: The one where you doubled the six-side conquer.
Finn: We also played one segment, I think, in the-in the actual KO. But, um-
Jacob: Do you-do you remember the gold rush game and the Kingston Regional?
Finn: Mm-hmm.
Jacob: This-this was funny, yeah. So after our second win in the KO against, the Pepsi team, we decided to play like a one session game in the side game there-- sorry, in the gold rush game and we ended up-
[00:44:00] Finn: We decided to play that side game but the side game didn't think. So the gold rush game was the only game to plan.
Jacob: Yeah. They wouldn't let us enter the open game. I don't think so. We just played in the gold rush and we ended up averaging like 48% to something. So we've come a long way since then.
Finn: We-we played, , we-- I-I invented a system, , for that event, in about 10 minutes, which involves some very, exciting things and-and that had something to do with our 48% game.
John: Yeah. I mean like-- so now that you guy-- I mean, you guys were asking about being on the show in San Francisco, like, what's it like actually being on the show is a little underwhelming?
Finn: No. No, I-I mean, I've-- the second recording that we're doing now has been more underwhelming but the first one was-was great. I-I really, , enjoy the show and I've, , I've listened to, I think almost every episode. I really enjoyed it. Um, I think you do a great job with the podcast and you've just been getting better as you've gone on with it.
John: Well, I think I'm regressing but thank you for these compliments. I feel like I've sort of, haven't really fully prepared for you guys. What was it like, Finn, you know, I've-- you know, your dad's a friend of mine. What was it like for you like when you won or when you tied for first in the NABC, like, what was that- what was that moment like when you and your dad, , when you realized, you know, that you had- that you had done this?
Finn: Well, my dad is-is, my-my greatest cheerleader. You know, he-he was, um, watching the whole time and he came in to get me water, to get me a snack, and he was cheer-cheering us on. Um, my-my dad was really happy for me and we went to go celebrate and get a nice dinner after that. So my dad was super supportive. yeah.
John: What about you, Jacob? Your- father-- It sounds like he-he was, a 299er um, at one point. Is he still- is he still not a life-master?
Jacob: He isn't. I'm trying to, , play with him in, sectionals and regionals when I can to try and help him get the, , gold and silver points and soon enough, , I think he'll have his like, master, um, yeah. [crosstalk].
John: Who are you celebrating-- I mean, like, was it a celebration? Did you feel like the fact that it was a tie and not an outright win, was it-- Did that add some sort of ambiguity to maybe the elation that you might feel for winning such a major, um, event?
Jacob: I-I-I think the tie was actually, , one of the optimal scenarios since the first national event, Bob won, was like 58 years ago. And that ended in a first, second tie as well. So Bob was really happy with the result in this event and it's nice to it's nice to tie such a good team.
John: Right.
Jacob: Like there's no one you'd rather tie, than Meckwell and Helness Helgemo in the finals and Eddie Wold, of course so that was really nice. I-I-I think, it was a bit sad as well that because we've looked back on every hand where we could’ve had an IMP and kind of was a bit disappointed but still I'm sure if we won by one or something the other team would have felt really bad about this. It was a great result for us and, yeah, the celebration was fun afterward and fortunately, we can't go out anywhere but, um, my family still did something here and I made sure to call our teammates after and they were all thrilled with the result.
[00:47:02] Finn: Well, yeah, so for me, I mean, it's difficult, you know, whenever you don't win-- you always wanna win by more. You always want to win or at least that's my attitude but coming first, second, you know, if we'd lost, there still would have been a celebration just making it that far. We-- it was already a great accomplishment for me. And, um, also like whenever mentality, I've- I've learned a little bit through playing more, you know, in Bridge, you're always gonna lose a lot more than you win even if you're really, really good.
So I've-- You know obviously I'm used to losing but I've-I've kind of taught myself just to make the losses worse and when I win, try to really enjoy the wins and not you know, feel bad about how I could be playing better. You know, I want to learn from the things that I could do better but I want to enjoy the win as much as I can and not-- not be worried about how I could have done better in this event.
Jacob: I-I-I think- I think when I started out playing with Finn, he-he used to , really even if we won, he would hate the hands he messed up but now he's , he's kind of learning to appreciate winning a bit more. I-I-I would say that's , been one of his biggest improvements.
John: Mm. Do you think that's making-- Do you think that's why he's-he's really starting to get such great results , Jacob? That he's got a more even-killed attitude towards- towards the game?
Jacob: For sure. Definitely your attitude and perspective towards the game really plays a big role into how you do and um, in just yeah, just how you play it's going to be affected by the attitude you come to the table with. S-So certainly this has been a big part of how we're trying to improve this in partnership is-- Yeah.
John: Do you-- Do- Have you evolved? Like did you use to give like-- I know that with professional partners of mine in the past I've been pretty hard on them when they make like a losing decision um, and that's an area where I have improved. Is that something that you guys are much more conscientious about ?
Finn: Well, I think Jacob you know, he's alway-- He's learned very, very good manners you know, when I started playing Bridge I was even more of a little punk so I would play with my dad and my dad was a really good player but-- And I was a novice and I would- I would be a jerk to him or a jerk to my mom. But I have worked really hard at getting better about that because that's definitely not who I want to be and- as a person and especially be at the Bridge table.
John: Finn when I saw you, like in San Fransisco at the- at the-- l- at the last , live NABC that we had, I remember you did really well in the two-day I think it was the Life Master Pairs-- Is that- Is that right?
Finn: Yeah. I-I came fourth and Jacob also had his highest finish in that event which at the time was eighth. Um, so we're-we're all happy with that event. Yeah.
John: Why I didn't realize you were- You were in the top 10 as well. Jacob who did you play with in that event?
Jacob: I was playing with Daniel Levi who is currently my partner's-- Sorry, my partner for the Canadian , national team trials, this year and yeah. So we were actually I think fifth or fourth or something with a round to go and in the last round, we got completely fixed on the two hands. So it was kind of a bittersweet result. I think at one point we thought we had a chance to maybe make the top three but, we were definitely happy with the result. I- It was my best one at that point so yeah.
[00:50:19] Finn: I-I have a good story about that result. So you-- After I came fourth espe-- For me at the time that was an amazing achievement. Even now I'd be happy with that I'm sure you know, coming top five in any-any national event is great but I was super happy about it and I was talking to a-- So everybody congratulated me and it was so nice but the one person who didn't, I was talking to Herman-and you know he- About coming fourth and he said, "Oh um, I'm sorry." Um, because-because I didn't win.
You know, that was a complement of him honestly saying, you know, it's too bad that you-you didn't win or you didn't come-come higher but you know, to- to me that was kind of funny at the time. So that I've-- I'd-I'd been congratulated by everybody but talking to Hamman you know, he was telling me, "Oh, I'm sorry." Um, so I-I talked to Geoff about this, Hampson and-and-and I-- And I- I to- I , gave him a guessing game and I said, "Who do you think , consoled me for my coming fourth?" And-and Hampson said you know he didn't have a good guess I-I maybe he just didn't want to guess.
So I-I told him it was Hamman and he said, "You know, that's-that's a big compliment and I'm sure he's right. S-Soon you're gonna be a- having much higher finishes." So- so later wh-when we came third in the Blue Ribbon Pairs, Geoff came up to me and he said, "Oh, I was right”
John: I remember Finn because I-- you know because I know- because I know you a little bit and-and , I-I became friends with your dad in Toronto so-- And I remember when I saw that you finished I remember thinking, "Well you know, that was- that was , you know, the- the Soloway is now happening during that so it wasn't quite-quite the event that maybe it would be otherwise and frankly I was a little jealous." And then you finished third in the Blue Ribbons and you put a fix on me and my partner , you bid three no-trump on my hand without a stopper in the suit that I- I think my strongest suit and yeah so silly me.
Finn: Well I also-- I miss pitched on one hand against your partner and-and-- [chuckles] And his suit was good and dummy. All 13 cards had been--, he had the-- Like 12-- the 11, 12 and 13th card in this suit or something and he didn't realize they were good so he stopped running them.
[laughter]
John: Oh man. To have the success that you've had Finn at such a young age, you started playing Bridge in Toronto just a little bit more than two years. I mean, like it's-it's pretty amazing.
Finn: Yeah well, I've been lucky. I-I was talking about you know, in the last recording my dad, I played with my dad for a lot and improved that way. I had you know, more mentors but and-and recently now that it's been online, I've basically made it my goal to learn from whoever's willing to teach me. And so-so namely Geoff Hampson.
For a while I was playing with him twice a week online and you know, emailing him or calling him about the hands and you know, trying to learn everything I can from him. Um, Eddie Wold for a while yeah, I was also playing about once a week with Eddie. Passel, we still have been playing several times a week together. Um, Bobby Levin, I was able to play with him twice. So I've had a ridiculous amount of opportunities for being able to get better through mentorship.
John: Like what's something you've learned from one of these guys recently?
Finn: Listening to Hampson, you know, how he thinks about hands and or a- you know, all of these guys of course just like you know- you know listening to them, how they think about the hands, what I can do better always yeah. And Kev-Kevin Rosenburg also, I forgot to mention him. He-- I've been playing with him a lot and he is not as experienced as them but he is an incredibly good player.
John: Yeah.
Finn: And I've-I've learned a l- a lot from him also.
[00:53:56] John: What about you Jacob? Are you sitting over here with like me going, "Man I wish I- I wish I were getting some- getting some lessons from those guys too."
Jacob: I-I-I mean I've had the opportunity to also play with some very strong people and this has been great , has been great. I-I think everyone has something , something unique that they've learned along the way that they can offer. Um, whether it's about , bridge analysis um, or even like how to get the best game out of yourself and your partner at the table. I think everyone no matter really their skill level, anyone who's been playing a lot longer than me can offer me , something so I-I-I tried to no matter the level of person I'm playing with to pick up a bit along the way from everyone. But definitely, I am somewhat jealous of the people Finn's had the opportunity to play with.
John: We played one speedball on BBO. I didn't give you my best game, unfortunately, Jacob. I was happy-- I was delighted to play with you and , and we've been trying to fix another date but, we haven't , haven't managed to-to-to get that booked yet.
Jacob: H-Hopefully , we'll find a time at some point. , i-it's nice to finally be on The Setting Trick now. I know we, we'd talked about this for a while too so now that this is out of the way we can play-- My schedule is free. Over the past few months I was just waiting to be on this podcast.
[laughter]
John: Well you-you-you asked about it in-in San Fransisco and it was sort of like a lark almost. To me, at least and then Finn almost won the Blue Ribbon Pairs so I-- You know like now that you guys have , you're co-winners of the NAOBC you know, you've earned- you've earned your place. This is not some -- This is not some fluff job. I mean this is just like you guys are-- You absolutely deserve to be here.
Not that- Not that I'm saying like the podcast is necessarily like some-- some you know, like you have to have credentials but , but you guys really like, I mean, it was -it was funny 'cause Dave Cabrera, as I've talked to Finn about this, Dave Cabrera had said in one of the threads, like that-that they were he'd-he'd picked the win and because I didn't play in the event, I wasn't really watching it that closely but then next thing I know there you guys are and it's just like, wow, this is kind of- kind of eerie that, that Dave picked you guys and, and yeah, you did it.
Finn: I think Dave, you know, he-he's really involved in the junior training program, so he's always rooting for-for Jacob and I, you know, he's-he's mentored me in the past also, he's, a great coach, I think and um, he knows, you know, I think he was super grateful to Kit and Bart and Bob and Peter for teaming with us, you know, he's-he's-he wants us juniors to do well and he-he thought it was a great opportunity for us to play with them so he, you know, he was really rooting for us all the way and yeah-yeah, David's great.
John: Can you tell us a little bit about the difference between playing with Jacob and your other partner, Michael? Do you call him Michael 2 or just Michael Xu?
Jacob: I-I-I call him Michael Rosenberg [laughs] Too.
[laughter]
John: You call him Michael Xu, Michael Rosenberg, Jacob.
Jacob: [laughs] Yeah.
[laughter]
Jacob: If-if you-you ever want to know what Michael Rosenberg would do on a hand, you can always ask Michael Xu if Michael Rosenberg's busy.
[laughter]
Finn: Well, yeah, so, -, so for that, I-I really enjoy playing with both of them um, both Jacob and Michael. They're-they're definitely, um, very different Bridge players. So-so Michael, I think he-he's not played nearly as much Bridge as Jacobs. So the way that he's learned has been totally different and-and I can tell that. So when- when Jacob or I, when we make a decision, we've played a lot of hands in these last few years since we've been playing seriously so um, he-- a lot of it just comes from experience, but-but Michael be, almost everything that he does is some-- is what he learns from Michael Rosenberg and he tries to apply those principles.
So for him, you know, he-- it's almost more of an analytical approach that-that Michael has to the game whereas, yeah, Jacob is definitely, you know, more
experienced, they're both-both good players in their own ride, um, I, yes. Michael is a little bit more thoughtful again because of the less experienced but-
John: Mm.
Finn: Also both of them, um, are very good partners, they-they never complained about any of the terrible plays I make, which I like
John: Jacob, what do you think Finn's best attribute as a partner is?
Jacob: Let me think about that for a minute. [laughs] Um, I think, yeah, his card play is really good um, and-and obviously he's very talented , as a Bridge player but besides from that, he's also just, doesn't complain at all about and he's always smiling and, , nice too. , he-he's sometimes not as nice as he could be to the opponents but he's got a lot better with that over the years and he's definitely a great partner to play with, it makes you very comfortable in your decisions, knowing he's not gonna get mad about anything so yeah.
John: Can-- Is there any-is there a hand you can think of from the from the event that you thought like you guys did really well on?
Finn: Well, I mean, it's hard to-- we didn't have any like write-up hands, I would say necessarily, but I thought there were a lot of hands where Jacob and I defended well, stuff like that. I'm sure you know, the hands that we defend well, I honestly-- I probably think about less than the hands, like, or I just, you know, I feel terrible about me playing too quickly and making the wrong play or getting a play right-wrong that I should have gotten right so I don't even reme-remember the-the ones we get right as much. Do you-- what do you, what about you, Jacob? Do you remember any?
Jacob: I think the one hand that really jumped out at me given our limited agreements was one we bid six clubs on the first day or something. Um, it may have been the second day we had an auction where, Four no-trump became last train and then we were able to find a pretty good six clubs spot there um, so that was nice to have that agreement.
Um, there weren't really any spectacular hands um, although those came from our teammates but , we just tried to play solid Bridge throughout and I think mostly we were able to do this. Finn tends to focus on his mistakes too much throughout than realizing how many things he did well throughout. So the-- , I'm sure there's a lot of plays he played just terrific in there that he may not remember as much.
John: How do you guys go through the-the hands after-after a session, like a-a day of Bridge?
Finn: We didn't really even go over the hands very much from the NOBC because we're always in the heat of the event and we want to focus on doing better for the next day, preparing, we weren't really caught up. I mean, if we had any important partnership misunderstandings, we tried to talk about it.
The previous week, two weeks we played in the-in the Bridge house events, which you also played and John and that was-- we worked on a lot of our agreements in that and we also played in a match versus the French junior team and for that, you know, we called and we discussed all the partnership aspects of each hand, we try not to focus on each other's mistakes, like where it does not have to do with partnership.
If we-- one of us, should we say, we just make a bad bid or we know how we should have played this better, you know, we try to learn from each other when we can but I think it's mostly just us working on improving on our own or maybe even from outside sources so.
[01:01:02] Jacob: We've talked a lot about this recently, like how do-- what's gonna allow us to improve the most as in partnership? And I think what we ended up deciding on is just having discussions about, , where we could have done better as a pair and the bidding or how we could have made the defense easier for each other, rather than looking at some of the hands we messed up the guard play individually um, since we both have the ability to figure those out after the fact.
John: Jacob, if you were the host of this podcast, what question would you be asking Jacob Freeman, if you were-if you were me?
Jacob: Hmm. [laughs] Um, how do you convince Finn to play with you in this? [chuckles]
John: How did you two guys decide to-- I mean, I know you said-- Finn, you said in our previous conversation, you guys have been on and off partners, like how did you decide to play the-the NOBC then together?
Finn: So, I heard that the event was coming up and, um, I don't really have like too many regular partners that I-I like I like to play with. I mean, um, this was at the point I-I had been playing with Michael, , Michael, a decent amount, Michael Xu and I was, you know, thinking about whether I should play in this-in this with him. We were originally planning on playing the summer nationals but I kind of realized that Michael, even-even though he's really talented, he's not-he yeah, he's so busy with other things that he doesn't really have time to focus on playing all these big events.
So, um, I-I definitely, wasn't going to be playing with him and there's some, yeah, I-I really liked playing with Jacob so I-I wanted to ask him. We hadn't played in a while but I-I thought it would be a good opportunity for us to see how-to-to see how work as a partnership, especially-- Yeah, that-that was just my thinking. So I-I called him and asked him if he wanted to play and Jacob, you know, mulled it over a little bit and eventually said, "Yes."
John: Jacob, how long did you mull it over for?
Jacob: Um, a few weeks while I tried to find someone else and then I realized, I was probably stuck here and had to just play with Finn in this and yeah. [laughs]
John: You're being facetious when you say that?
Jacob: Yeah.
John: What's three way Drury?
Jacob: I don't know.
[crosstalk]
Jacob: [chuckles] I-I stopped, yeah.
John: You don't play that?
Jacob: I-I actually stopped playing that now, since I was convinced of, -, of just trying to use simpler agreements and focusing a lot on the card playing bidding judgment and going into this event.
I think Finn and I at one point had 40 pages of system notes, and we cut them down to five pages.
John: Wow.
Finn: Well, when we say cut them down, we [crosstalk]
Jacob: We got rid of those.
Finn: So, basic-- Jacob and I both have a lot of agreements from our previous partnerships and, you know, we kind of called and discussed what we wanted to play but I-I think that we shouldn't have had this approach but we kind of had the approach that because the event was open notes, that we can just play a lot of stuff and then, , and then look at our notes. But I-I wasn't that really that comfortable with it anyways because I want-- I didn't want to have to worry about, you know, reading the notes when I-- I want to just be focusing on my judgment.
I think eventually, we both decided for the better that-- Especially once we do figured it probably was not open notes that we should just make new notes and try to make them simple agreements that we'll both remember and that we're both comfortable with.
John: That's pretty amazing. You only had five pages of notes and you co-won the event. We-- Is that something you guys will be willing to make available like we could, , share on the website what your notes are?
Finn: Yeah. We could but they're really-- Well, I guess Jacob cleaned them up a lot but, when we first made the notes until, I think maybe the second half of the event, we-we had maybe three pages of notes with a bunch of random things typed up, but then Jacob finally, and me some, we went through the effort of organizing them to where I could actually call them notes.
[01:04:34] John: When did you guys start thinking that you might actually win the event?
Jacob: On the last stand?
Finn: I sort of thought that we might actually win the event once-once I-I called the greatest bridge player of all time and he agreed to team with us.
Jacob: [laughs]
John: You read-You read his book r-recently. Was that was that before the event?
Finn: I read it. I started reading it, before the event or as the event was starting kind of but I finished the book last week and I really enjoyed the event. You know, just hearing about his approach towards the game and how he's won so much. I-I really liked the book. Yeah. I-I think-- Yeah, I thought it was really well-written also.
John: When you and your dad are hanging out, Finn, what percentage of the conversation is bridge related?
Finn: 80%. That's just a guess but that-that's what I would estimate at that. I mean-
Jacob: That's the other 20?
Finn: The other 20 is like talking about whether we're going to go on a bike ride or whether we're going to, what we're going to have for dinner or snack on.
Jacob: Play bridge.
John: Are you still-are you guys still playing Barbu?
Finn: I was still playing a lot for maybe a month to two months, but I basically quit. I think in the last few months, I've maybe played five games of Barbu, maybe a little but less.
Jacob: I played a lot a couple months ago, um, but once a lot that their juniors stop playing stopped. I wouldn't mind playing a bit more now but I kind of took up chess for a bit and I'm really bad at that. I'm worse than ever in chess than I am at bridge. It's amazing.
John: Jacob, I don't think you can really describe yourself as being worse at bridge. Like-- But worse-- Like worse in chess than bridge is there's a lot of room for being bad in-in that- in that gap. It seems like maybe not such a great metaphor. Can you beat Harrison Luba in chess?
Finn: No way.
Jacob: [laughs] I'd beat Finn a few times though.
Finn: Jacob can beat me easily, but Harrison is actually pretty competent at chess.
Jacob: Yeah, I-I-I can beat anyone who's not competent pretty much.
John: Do you play on chess.com?
Jacob: I do.
John: What's your rating?
Jacob: I don't know.
John: How do you not know what your chess rating is?
Jacob: I-I-I-It's terrible.
John: Come on. I'm 1,100 right now.
Jacob: I-I-I-I'm like half of that.
John: Oh, my gosh.
Jacob: Yeah.
Finn: You-You can't be half of that, right? Because you start out at 1,000.
Jacob: No, no. [crosstalk] of 800.
John: You-You start out lower than 1,000.
Finn: Okay.
John: For the Fall Nationals, you think they're going to do like the same format or you think there's going to be a lot more events and, than just- than-than just the pairs and the knockout. What do-- Any ideas?
Finn: Well, I think they're going to do it the same as they did here but if I-- I would like it if they just made it like a nationals, like the same schedules in nationals but online. I'm not sure if that's realistic but I think that would be fun. You know, playing-- It would make it feel more like a nationals instead of just a big online tournament.
Jacob: A-And if they gave out seeding points. That would also be nice.
John: Is it fair to say that this is both of your best bridge results?
Finn: Yeah. I mean it's definitely our best bridge result I'm sure. I mean for me, um, it's-it's a little bit different because I really, you know, for me coming third in the Blue Ribbon Pairs is a great achievement so this result was a far better result but I felt like I had less to do with it because I only played half of each match and Jacob carried me.
He played very well. I played pretty well until the semi-finals and the finals. I played poorly those two days so I felt like in the-- I-- Well, this is a way better result. It had less to do with me then Blue Ribbon Pairs.
John: Mm. Mm. Yeah. I mean I couldn't believe. When you came in third in the Blue Ribbon Pairs, I-I was like, "Wow, man. A kid. What? At 16 years old."
Finn: Yeah. I was, yeah, 15 at the time so now I'm 16.
John: 15. Wow. Man, I didn't learn how to-- I learned how to play bridge when I was 18 also with my parents. My mom and dad still play bridge but very much recreationally. Like they must be playing Bridge Baron like on their iPads, and sometimes we'll play.
Finn: Did your parents teach you or how did you learn?
John: Sort of. So they knew how to play. So, we used to play hearts and my aunt suggested that we should try bridge and I was a little like, "Mm. I don't know." And then when we played it, I loved it. And so for the first probably, seven years of my bridge playing career, I only played bridge at home with my parents.
And then my sister had some friends that had a-- Needed a fourth for a bridge class and then that woman introduced me to duplicate and then, you know, duplicate, it's just-it's just a whole another-it's just a-a whole another thing and I didn't, you know, I didn't, -- It didn't occur to me. Like, I lived in New York City after I graduated college and it didn't occur to me to go-- The Honors was like two blocks from where I lived an it didn't even occur to me to go, you know, look for a- look for a bridge game. I just thought it was something that I need to do at home.
Finn: Yeah. That's crazy.
John: And that's that.
Finn: Well, Honors is really expensive so y-y-you might [crosstalk]
[01:09:01] John: But, you know, that's part of the reason that I made the movie is because it's like if my aunt hadn't suggested that I learn to play bridge, then I don't know that I-that I ever would've and you guys, like, just having a conversation with you guys here, it's like-- I mean, there's so many bridge players that have just made my, like, life just so much more interesting because of bridge for me, and that's-that's why I made the movie.
That's part of the reason why I do this podcast is because I want-- I like sharing-- Like I hearing your stories and I also like being able to share that with a broader community and you'd never know like what one person might hear this, like how much of an impact it can make on your life to learn the game.
Finn: Yeah, for sure. I mean a few years ago, I-I-I wanted nothing to do with bridge, , I, you know, um, but o-once-once I decided to learn just because-- I mean like that $300 that was offered by my district, that's what-that's what got me playing and if it weren't for, you know, and-and-and now, you know, it's my whole life. I-- All my friends are bridge players and I play bridge all the time, I think about bridge all the time. Ye-yeah, it's a-- It was life-changing.
John: Do you have young people in Ventura to-to play with?
Finn: No, when I say my friends and it's all like not friends I see that much, but I go to as many tournaments as I can. So obviously, not right now. Right now, it's all, um, virtual friends.
John: Finn, who's bad? Do-- Are you-are you a lot better than your sister?
Finn: Um, that's an off-limit subject.
Jacob: Well, I,[laughs]
John: Yeah. Jacob, go ahead.
Jacob: I tried to recruit, Emma For the online NABC but I ended up with Finn once, once [laughs].
Finn: Emma is also, um, Emma is a very good bridge player and she works hard. She's a good partner. Um, I enjoy playing with her when I have the chance. Definitely-definitely a fun experience. May-maybe, some mix pairs coming up for us in the feature fit- if it ends up working out that way.
John: But do you think you've passed her by?
Finn: Again, off-limits buddy, come on.
Jacob: Um, what about-- Question for Finn. Do you ha-- Just having a brother who doesn't play bridge, how do you think having siblings that play bridge has impacted, I guess your interest in your why you study the game? Has this had any impact on, um, your interest in the game?
Finn: Well, I mean, for the last maybe year and a half, it hasn't because I've just fallen in love with the game and the community that-that the game has. So it hasn't then. But when I was first playing, you know, I wanted to compete with my sister, which is not, you know, any, um, an emotion I hold it all anymore. But I wanted to be better than my sis- my older sister at Bridge and I want to have more masterpoints than her. But it's, um, you know, it hasn't-that hasn't been an incentive for me after I was a novice at all. So.
[01:12:02] John: Jacob, how many siblings do you have?
Jacob: Just an older brother.
John: And he's not interested?
Jacob: No, he's more focused on like, music in, um, that's, yeah. He's not really a-- He tried to play the game at one point but didn't have much interest in it. I think he lost interest after a few hours [chuckles] of trying to learn it.
John: And does your mom play as well?
Jacob: She plays a bit. She's been trying to take up the game recently and they've been playing with family and friends. Both my parents have been during this pandemic.
John: And are your parents, like, you-you know, you-you co-won this event. Like what-what do they think about that?
Jacob: They were very impressed. They don't really understand the level of competition in the event but they definitely understood what winning this event meant in that, it was an accomplishment. They kind of recognize some of the names by now. So when I say Bob Hamman, they-they know who that is and Meckwell, when I talk about them they kind of have a sense of who these people are. But some of the pairs, they just don't know [chuckles] so it doesn't mean much but obviously they were proud of our success in the event.
Finn: Yeah, I mean, I think for-for getting new people to play, I mean, a lot of my, you know, like my cousins or, you know, other young people my age I've definitely want them to learn. I-I know how much it's changed my life and how-how good of a game I think it is, so I want them to. But it's-- There's a big hump, you know, just with learning.
But I think anybody that loves solving problems and loves puzzles, I think-I think bridge-bridge will be great for them. I think, so I-I think definitely for those type of people, bridge will be, you know, very addicting, more-more fun than anything really. Definitely. That-that's my target when I wanted to teach people bridge.
John: Did you post on your Facebook, you know, that you won this event or did?
Finn: No.
Jacob: My mom made a post though.
Finn: People find out-- They can find out. [laughs] It's an accomplishment for me if-if they see then. Cool. [exhales]
John: Finn, who's better? You or your dad?
Finn: Co-come on, John. This is ridiculous.
Jacob: What do you think, John? Who-who-who do you think's better to play?
John: I've never played with either-- with-with either one of them.
Finn: Well, my dad has told me a story a few times about when my dad first met John, they were, um, they met in Tromso. And I-I came to Norway after that, but I-I went-- I left a little bit later with my grandma. So I was-I wasn't actually there but I was in Norway later. And my dad was going on a hike with John in Tromso and John told my dad, "All right, I'm-I'm gonna hire you for the Blue Ribbon Pairs." So.
John: No. That's not. I never said that.
Finn: Okay, I'm gonna play with you in the Blue Ribbon Pa-- for I don't remember.
John: [crosstalk] playing an event together. Yeah.
Finn: Okay. I won't-- No, I-I guess the story changes every time I hear that.
[01:14:45] John: [laughs]
Finn: So-so the-- so they talked about playing in the Blue Ribbon Pairs or whatever the situation was. So, um, so-so-so my-- The-- So then my dad started talking about [chuckles] how through the years, he's played with all these different partners. And because a lot of them were old, a lot of them have started dying off. So-so-so-so John, you know, he rethinks his proposition to playing with then with my dad. And and he says he says, "Is-is it okay Alex, if-if I, if we don't play in the Blue Ribbon Pairs?
John: This is true. This is true. I was thinking about telling the story. I was considering telling the story [laughs]. I remember I was talking to my acupuncturist about it. I'm like, "Yeah, This guy kills his bridge." Oh my gosh. Um, wow [lipsmack].
John: Are you guys getting interest though from-from sponsors? Like are people approaching you like now that particularly that you've won, you know, won this event? You've co-won this event. I'm sorry I can't say you won the event. You've co- won this event. Like are-are you starting-- Even before that are you-are you getting interest from-from sponsors?
Jacob: So, going into this event. When there was supposed to be the Montreal Nationals I actually had plans to play as a fifth person on Gary Donner's team. I would be playing with Cecilia half the time. And Gary would be playing the other half , with her. And then we had Marian and Periola. Yeah, I might be mispronouncing their names. But that was gonna be a cool opportunity but obviously, no regrets about how this worked out.
Yeah, so that came up from teaming with Gary and um, in Yoko in Roth last summer in Las Vegas. And then, then me and Finn had something planned for the Columbus Nationals. We were planning to play together there professionally in Vanderbilt one point and then in the pair games and Swiss on like an amateur team .
Finn: So you're playing in the Swiss for the last weekend and I was gonna play with Ron Smith and the Fast Pairs last weekend or in the Swiss where if Ron found us some teammates. Um, yeah so and-and I was also-- Me and Michael Xu were gonna be getting hired for the Spin Gold this summer um, if it-- if it happens. So I mean a little bit. I think Jacob more than me because Jacob is a lot better than me certainly at like reaching out to people and getting to know people. I'm not-I'm not as good at that. So-so Jacob for sure.
John: What was your first professional , engagement with Jacob as a bridge player?
[01:17:19] Jacob: I played but just locally with people but I-I don't really play professionally that much. The situation with Team Downer just kind of came about through playing on an amateur team with them last summer we ended up, surpassing expectations in that event so Gary offered me the opportunity to then team with them, in the Montreal and Tampa Bay nationals. And unfortunately, neither of those happened but hopefully, there will-there will be more opportunities for, Finn and I to potentially play on professional teams at some point. But als , to continue playing on , strong amateur teams and recruiting, great [crosstalk]
John: Strong amateur teams.
Finn: John hates that. That's working him [crosstalk] But , yeah, I mean I-- Most of my professional bridge playing recently has been teaching-- , I have the one class with John Ramos. We're starting another class which we'll be doing. And I'm also , every month I'm a guest professor for the Bridge Professors’ class. So I've been doing, you know a lot of Zoom classes like that. And so that's-that's most of my professional bridge playing.
I thought I wanted to get hired more for like nationals and stuff but I think for right now I just wanna you know, work on learning as much as I can. So I think if I can learn as much as I can and not worry about getting hired now, then in the future I'll be able to play on some good teams.
[01:18:30] Jacob: Some shutouts quickly to um, Adam Grossack and John Ramos for , just been good about mentoring us and offering us advice and bringing us on to some professional deals and giving us these opportunities.
John: Mhm, yeah.
Jacob: If you don't mind me using your broadcast to give them a shoutout.
John: No, not at all. Not at all. You know these-- You're talking about some previous guest.
Finn: Yeah two-two of them are previous guests. I was gonna mention um-- I thought it was funny in-in your episode with Steve Weinstein you guys brought me up and Steve said that he thinks that I might break his record. So-so after this event, I emailed him. I-I-I asked Steve. I said, "Does this count because there wasn't another event I could use to break the record." And Ste-- And Steve told me, "Obviously, it's a tie."
[laughter]
Oh, and then I-I later found out from Adam Grossack that Zach was the record holder so I was gonna be breaking Zach's record which was way more fun. I-I love beating Zach but um, I-
John: Who's winning in the -- Who's winning in the-in the um, Rosenthal versus Donner speaking of? Have-have you guys looked at that?
Finn: I have not looked at it.
Jacob: It's-- The final is being played today.
Finn: Yes.
John: Yeah.
Jacob: Okay I'll check.
John: Finn, you were doing-- Were you doing the VuGraph for R-maps the other day?
Finn: So yeah. I did VuGraph all of Friday and I did two segments yesterday. I-I really liked commentating for the matches. I think I really enjoy listening to the commentating. So I feel like it's nice being able to offer that service, um, other-- for other people to in, um, able to enjoy. And I-I also did the streaming. I decided to take today off because I'm doing the podcast then I've-- My junior training practice with Michael Xu which we do every Sunday. So I figured I would take today off, I definitely enjoy doing that.
Jacob: A-and John did you have any questions for Finn and I about, playing in the world juniors or anything , along that front? Well, I saw the Double Dummy movie you made about this which was great. So, if any, questions were left unanswered from that, feel free.
John: I mean are they having some sort of online event in replacement of that? [crosstalk] under 21.
Finn: So it got postponed one year. So it could easily not happen but in-in theory, next summer in August and it's also Mesour Italy. , they-they'll be played. Um, so I'm playing on a team with Michael Xu, Sarah Youngquist, Harrison Luba, Jonathan and Philip Wang and Jacob-
Jacob: I'm playing on a [crosstalk] team.
John: Are we-- Is this-- What-what happens if you're no longer under 21? Can you still be on the team?
Finn: Yeah, because it was postponed. It was -- They-they're making the same requirements as it was for this last year um. So when Jacob played at the China World Championships, I was not on the team for that year. , but I did play U-21 in Croatia this last year with Harrison Luba. And we-we came third in the team. So I have one medal and I'm hoping to win more.
John: And what did Canada do in that event Finn?
Finn: Canada did not-- Well, I had two Canadians on my team but Jacob was not one of them.
Jacob: It was a transnational event.
John: Oh.
Jacob: Um, so Finn was teaming with Bruce and John, Bruce is the person who I played with in China the previous summer so I was glad to see their success in this, this world championship and I think Bruce and John also came third in the paragra-game so it was, it was great to see Canada and America so well represented in that.
Finn: And Kevin Rosenberg's team also, they won the-the gold medal in the U-26.
John: Yeah, Kevin's very good he-he's a pleasure to play with, I put him in some tight spots during the Round Robin and he- You know the-there was a hand I had ace Jack fifth, Jack fourth, Jack fourth, and Kevin opened to two no trump, this was in the, quarter-final match.
Finn: Mm-hmm.
John: And so I would-I would, , Stayman and then Smolen and now, like I can bid four diamonds natural and the problem- sorry he opened-two clubs, he opened two clubs.
Finn: Yeah, I actually know the hand.
John: So he opens two clubs. I bid two diamonds, so now he bids two no, then we go through this Smolen sequence and I'm deciding whether or not I should bid four diamonds or not.
Jacob: Mm-hmm.
John: And the problem is I'm a little light, if we don't have-if he has like a one clubs-if we-if we-if we have nothing in clubs where we could-it could be embarrassing you know, we could make-we could make seven diamonds and-and go down in three no trump but the problem is that I bid diamonds first.
[01:22:59] Finn: Yeah.
John: So I think the winning decision was just to pass three no because like if-if it's a tight spot and Kevin's declaring, then I'm-that I'm like way more-- I-I think it we've gotta-we've gotta like-- I think there's like so I-I think there's something to passing
three no for-for me here, what do you-what do you think Jacob? Finn knows the hand already.
Jacob: I probably would bid for diamonds here, um, but yeah that's, that's just my perspective on the hand a-and from what I've seen of your declaring skills, you seem to declare pretty well so I-I mean I never like to take Kevin Rosenberg off declaring since I've seen him do some amazing stuff but, certainly you're a good, declarer yourself so I wouldn't be too worried about the four diamond bid.
Finn: Jacob thinks the same thing when he's playing with me, he tries to you know bid-bid a lot when I'm playing the hands.
[laughter]
John: All right, guys I hate to do this I have to go I have a squash match starting shortly.
Finn: All right, well-well good luck John we-we enjoyed it thank you.
Jacob: A-a-and also if you come up with any extra questions and want to hop on another call at some point, we're happy to but thank you very much for organizing this and giving us the opportunityto be on one of these podcasts. Tt kind of means we-we made it at this point when you get to be on, -
Finn: No-no-no we have a lot-we have-- Jacob, you can't give up winning now, we have a lot more to win.
John: You know you guys, like I'm really happy for you guys. It's tire-it's a tired thing but it really is I love seeing you guys at tournaments. I love your- your youthful exuberance and so I'm-I'm thrilled that you guys co-won this event and, , you know like you deserve to be, , you deserve to be you know, you deserve to be interviewed and I might just- I might just take you up on that like getting a little more organized about this the next time, but, hopefully.
Finn: It was pleasure talking to you, John.
John: Thank you, hopefully this will be the first of many conversations after-after championships won by you two.
Finn: Thanks, John.
Jacob: Thank you very much.