Episode 21: Phil Clayton

Phil Clayton is a regular listener. When he recently won the first ever Premier Pairs we decided to invite him to be a guest. Phil wrote this post on Bridgewinners describing his win with his regular partner Andrew Gumperz. The ACBL’s ultimate masterpoint reward is Grand Life Master. Unfortunately for Phil, none of his major wins will qualify him for the distinction. Nonetheless, he says the Premier Pairs is his best result to date.

Phil recently moved to Dallas and seems to be greatly enjoying the bridge culture there. Here’s a photo of him and Hall of Famer/ Episode 12 guest, Bart Bramley.

0:30 - Phil Clayton’s regular partner and home-grown system

2:40 - what it was like winning the pairs

5:15 - Even a bad session led to a win

7:00 - Phil’s environment as a junior player

10:05 - bidding problem and funny system win

15:00 - defensive problem

20:55 - Phil’s advice on defensive signaling

30:10 - Phil’s prediction on future National events

37:45 - Playing with Hamman

13 pages of notes after 90 minutes of discussion

44:35 - How Phil got back to Bridge after his hiatus

48:30 - Mountain biking with Chris Compton

“Over the falls”

56:05 - Finalist for ACBL CEO Job

1:11:40 - Nerve wracking nature of barometer scoring

1:16:35 - Bidding problem

Link to listen to episode

Transcript link

John McAllister: Welcome, Phil Clayton. One of my number one fans.

Phil Clayton: [laughs] Um, that is true. Hello, John. And thank you for having me on The Setting Trick. Um, I am a big fan. I've been listening to your podcast. I think since the beginning, I think I've even, um, sent some people over your way.

John: Well, that's certainty. It's not- there's no thinking about that. You are 100% responsible for Bart Bramley's appearance here on The Setting Trick and congratulations on winning the first-ever premier pairs.

Phil: Yeah. Winning the premier pairs was-was pretty cool. Um, my regular partner is Andrew Govers. We have developed a system called Martian Standard. Um, it is a blend of what fan tunes, um, was without the, um, without the help. And, uh, and if you're- if you're a bit of assistant geek, it's pretty close to what, um, Roy well being, um, I can play. So I'm happy to go into some detail if you, um, if you'd like that type of thing.

John: Um, well, I saw something. Steve [unintelligible 00:01:14] posted on your- on your Bridge winners, uh, on the thread where you won. He was talking about you- you don't play- you didn't play any robots in this event. Did you? He was just talking- he was just referring to your winning the-the-the online, the robot, uh, tournament.

Phil: Yeah-yeah. So in, um, so every- I don't know if you've played in this but, um, kind of concur with every national. They have a three-day, um, national-- What do they call it? national online, um, um, robot tournament, or something. It's-it's- it has a more austere name than that. Um, but the one in November, um, I won it, which was fun.

I had three consecutive 70% games. I don't believe anyone's done that. Um, it takes a fair amount of luck to win one in ceilings, but I'll tell you something that's kind of funny is I played in the one about three weeks ago and, um, and I was seventh and I was actually more proud of getting seventh the second time that I was of winning it the-the-the one time.

John: Well, it doesn't look as good on your résumé.

Phil: That is true. I don't get the, um, I think Nick Hammond says he's going to start creating a Wikipedia entry for, um, some of these things.

John: [laughs] When is it like to-- I mean, what's it like to win the Premier Paris? How do you- how are you- how would you characterize that for?

Phil: Um, it-it's- don't get me wrong. It's-it's-it's-it's a massive, um, I mean, my-my-my phone was-was exploding with congratulatory texts and my Gmail was, um, and it was a lot of fun. It-- I mean, it's online Bridge, so it doesn't have the same-- Um, it certainly doesn't have the same cache as a live tournament.

Um, you know, you don't have people, you know, like buying me drinks at the bar and high-fiving you and things like that. Um, but I consider this to be a really tough event. Um, I-I'm not sure if you're aware of what it takes to qualify for this, but you either needed to play in the online knockout. Um, it started the weekend prior, excuse me, or have a platinum pairs qualifier. So, um, to qualify for the platinum

pairs, you need something like 200 platinums lifetime, or like 50 in the last three years.

And this is like maybe 1% of the entire population of the CPL. So it's, um, I mean, that by itself makes it a pretty elite event. Um, the reason I hedge a little bit in the answer is-- I mean, with online Bridge, there's always, I think this kind of lingering doubt that, oh, you know, you're wired or you were on the phone with your partner, or how do we know that you weren't cheating and things like that. Um, and-and so there's sort of that- that, uh, that pale over it.

Um, and the other thing to consider is that, um, the powers to be- you know, in spite of the fact of how difficult it is to even play in this event in the first place, the powers that be aren't ready to call a-an online national pairs event, a NABC plus. So it's like, this is cool, but my goal in life is to win an open national. So I get my grand life master. Right. And, um, I, um, I have one for NABC without the class. And I- and I- I don't- I don't have any- NABC class yet. So I'm-I'm feeling a little like [unintelligible 00:05:05].

John: What'd you say this is like where-where does this rank in your Bridge-Bridge accomplishments?

Phil: Def-definitely the top. No question about it.

John: Oh, wow.

Phil: Yeah, And- and then I won the zero to 10,000 pairs in Atlanta. Um, that was pretty cool. Um, and I won the, um, the mini blues with Jonathan Cohn in San Francisco. And that was really cool. And-and-and the funny thing about that when- was- we were- I've never heard of this before, and I've talked to Bob Hammond about this, but we were second coming into the final session. We were actually leading, coming into the final day, but we had kind of a flat first final. So we were in second place coming into the final session and check this out. Our final session, we had- we didn't even break 51% and we still won.

John: Wow.

Phil: I mean, how is that even possible, right? I mean, every-

John: Mm.

Phil: -everybody that was like in the top 10 just had an awful game. Everyone that was like in the bottom 10 had a great game. So we just sort of, you know, we're able to sort of survive.

John: Wow.

Phil: Yeah, it was that-that was pretty amazing.

John: Jonathan's a listener too. Actually, he's-he's reached out to me, um, previously.

Phil: Yeah, Jonathan's a great guy lives up in, I mean, we- we have a lot of commonality. I grew up in a small town in Montana. Um, he lives up in the North- Eastern part of Wyoming. We can really relate to each other, especially about the winters. [chuckles]

John: Well, I wanna get you on staff here at the setting trick. The pay-pay is not great, but because you sent me this-this, uh, excellent document with all the-- all these- all these questions that I can ask you, including how you got started in Bridge, which took place in Montana as you just referenced.

Phil: Yeah. So, um, I've been playing since I was about 15 years old. Um, both of my parents played party Bridge. None of them were, um, were duplicate players. Um, my dad's dad was a good player. He played train Bridge in San Francisco for money. Um, but I just- I don't know. I sort of took to the game.

Um, my mom brought me to my first duplicate, um, when I was 16 years old and she played with me twice and she was just- she didn't like it. She was scared of it. And she said, "Well, you're kind of on your own, um, for now." And, um, I went to my first tournament about two months later in a little town called Shelby Montana, which is in the middle of nowhere, but it has a big sectional because you get a lot of Canadian players that go there after the spring nationals.

So they'll-they'll sort of like drive through because it's-it's a long, um, uh, [unintelligible 00:07:54] 15. So-so they'll pass through there and stop, in Shelby for a few days and basically just party. So he used to have a real big turnout. So Shelby was my- was my first national-- Not national, first sectional. And it was a lot of fun.

And, um, I got to meet-- I was just sort of immersed in the Bridge community and, um, and not just the Bridge itself, but just the sense of community and all of the- everybody would have a party, um, you know, at their place after the game. And you never had to worry about paying for a hotel, cause somebody would always have an extra bed or an extra couch or something. So, um, you know, that's, and that's the way that the community of Bridge was back in Montana.

And this was kind of in a time where junior Bridge didn't exist, you know, um, I just turned 57 and I think our- one of our first junior teams, um, came at about two or three years after, um, I stopped being a junior. So like Debbie Rosenberg and John diamond, um, Wayne Steward, um, folks like that who were about maybe three years- three or four years younger than I am. They were like kind of the first like US junior team. So we didn't really have that opportunity for mentorship. Um, as a junior, I mean, my mentors were the Bridge world and, um, reading-reading at Kelsey and Reese.

John: Who did you play with in your- in your first, uh, section? Do you remember?

Phil: That's a hard question. Um, some Montana players, I don't remember who they were. Um, no, sorry, I don't--

John: How was it from where you- you where you were from, uh, Havre?

Phil: Havre, yeah. Yeah. Shelby's about three hours to the West. So, um, I was, you know, I couldn't like stay in my own house, you know, I had to actually go there. I think I stayed in somebody's camper trailer or something for the trip but, um, yeah, I mean, Montana, if you've ever been up there, all the cities are really spread out.

John: Um, you sent me some-some bidding problems and some play problems. Are they from the, uh, were they from the event?

Phil: Yep, yep. Um, I'll give you the bidding problem first.

John: Okay.

Phil: So, um, this is something that my opponent was faced with. So you're red white and you're in the fourth seat and your hand is, uh, quee- queen and one spade, ace, king, queen, 10, small of hearts, um, and then ace, king, queen, 10, sixth of diamonds and void club. Now the thing about Bramley is whenever like I give him a hand and I say void club, he chews my head off. He says, "There's no reason to say void club. It's redundant." And I'm like, "Okay, sorry." So you're, um, you're basically, um, two, five, six, zero with ace, king, queen of both red suits.

John: Yeah.

Phil: And your red white and smash points, of course, and you hear one club on your left by me and this shows at least two cards. And would usually be a weak notrump type hand-

John: Mm.

Phil: -um, or it could be a stronger hand with clubs. And it goes pass by your partner. And it goes five clubs on your right by Andy. So you're- you're-you're staring at this two loser hand, what would your bid be?

John: Well I-I-I bid twice actually. I-I decided- when I- when I thought about it a little more, I decided that I would bid six diamonds.

Phil: Six diamonds.

John: Yeah. [laughs]

Phil: Um, I think six diamonds is fine. Um, I-I like a couple of other bids better than six diamonds. Um, why do you like six diamonds?

John: Well, I don't like six diamonds, uh, but the reason that I decided to bid six diamonds is that maybe they're gonna take a- I don't know how many I can make. I think I can make five diamonds. I-I like to think I can make five diamonds but it might be- like it might- it's kind of- it's a- it's it's a- it's a two- it's a two-way shot. Maybe it makes and maybe they're gonna- maybe they're gonna save.

Phil: Yes, and that's- and that's a good reason to bid slam. Um, and I think there's another good reason. They may they may lead wrong. Your-your partner may have the ace of ace of clubs, for instance.

John: Mm.

Phil: You can ditch your spade right away.

John: Right.

Phil: Um, or partner has the king of clubs and they leave the ace of clubs and gets biffed. So, you know, I think- I think they're- I think bidding slam is pretty reasonable.

John: Mm.

Phil: Um, if I'm a bit of slam though, like five notrump. You know, pick a slam.

John: Mm.

Phil: And that way, um, your partner will play you for probably the red suits here because-

John: Mm.

Phil: -you-you know, if you had both majors, you might have been six clubs.

John: Mm.

Phil: Um, so I- you know I gave the hand to Bart. He bid five hearts. He's like-- He says, "I'm basically banking on my red suits running, um, and five hearts scores better than five diamonds," but-

John: Right.

Phil: -this person did five diamonds. Okay, which- I mean, you can't really fault it for being an unreasonable bid but, um, his partner had- I think his partner had a doubleton diamond and four baby diamonds and the king of spades. So six hearts is gin. Six diamonds is gin. Um, but this is the weird thing about this hand.

So my hand for opening one club and this is the system that Andy and I play is I have five spades to the ace, jack fit, jack third of diamonds, jack jack third of hearts, jack third of diamonds and ace jack tied to clubs. We-we have an agreement that all of our balanced hands five, three, three, two even with a five-card major, we treat it like a weak notrump. Because if you were playing with notrumps, you would open this hand like a weak notrump, right?

John: Mm.

Phil: So, so I mean, in every other table I'm sure it goes one spade by my hand and then Andy's got like three baby spades and king, queen, seventh of clubs is either raising spades or bidding a forcing notrump or something. And now this- now this big five six has the opportunity to get their like their hearts and diamonds in, but with our method, Andy was just able to, you know, blow him out of the water with five clubs.

John: Mm.

Phil: So that was, um, that was a funny end. And he was- I won't tell you who the player was. I mean, I'm sure you can look it up if you really wanted to but he-he wasn't very happy about this result, you know.

John: You know, it's funny, um, speaking about looking it up because the bidding problem-- Sorry, the play problem that you gave me, you did tell me who the declarer was. And I did look it up because I was really curious about what was right.

Phil: Yeah.

John: Um, [laughs] and I couldn't find him. So-so the the defensive problem you gave me was from the premier pairs.

Phil: It was. That was from the first final session.

John: Mm.

Phil: Um, so should we give it to your listeners?

John: Yes, absolutely.

Phil: 100 [unintelligible 00:15:10] of spades, ace, queen, jack, ten, sixth, uh, ten and one three baby and ace and one. Okay, so like it you know as I mentioned before, we play kind of a fine-tune, fine-tuned style. So our two spade opener. Our two spade opener shows 10 to 13 and an unbalanced hand. So you can think of this as either a really really heavy week two bid or a minimum opening bid. So, this is this is right in our wheelhouse.

I open a two spades and everybody was red by the way. And it goes check-check and, um, Sam Dinkin on my right, who is an amazing bidding theorist, who's playing with Mike-Mike Schuster bids four hearts. And it goes whistle. So I leave the ace of clubs and dummy comes down with two baby spades, uh, two baby hearts, very small hearts, um, ace, king, queen, 10, 9 of diamonds.

John: Yeah.

Phil: And four baby clubs. So two, two, five, four with basically solid diamonds.

John: Mm.

Phil: Okay, so I- so I slapped the ace of clubs on the table. And it goes low and Andy plays the king. Okay and Sam plays the jack. Now, um, I know that I'm kind of maybe catching a cold because of the situation but, um, what do you make out of partners camp clubs?

John: Mm, wait it says you have an unbalanced hand. There's six, three, two, two.

Phil: That's-that's considered unbalanced for us.

John: Okay.

Phil: So-so I mean, just like on the other hand where I open one club with a five, three, three two. I'm never gonna open two spades with the five, three, three, two.

John: Mm.

Phil: It's sort of the same principle. So I'll either have a six like a six card suit at the two level or it will be five four.

John: Gotcha.

Phil: Okay, so.

John: Um, what do I make of kings- king of clubs? Um--

Phil: Yeah.

John: Mm. Well, I mean, he definitely has a queen.

Phil: Yes, exactly. I mean- I-I-I mean- I mean and that's kind of where the conversation stops for most people, right, is why he's got the queen of clubs. It's like, "Well, yeah, he's got a queen of clubs." But so Andy and I have actually discussed this in length. So we play on the lead of an ace. Okay, okay, so I don't wanna give you any spoilers here. So what would you continue a trick two? I mean, I think there's a- I think there's two reasonable, um- two reasonable, um--

John: Ace in a spade or-or playing clubs.

Phil: Yeah, exactly.

John: Those are the two choices.

Phil: Right, because you don't really have a count on the club suit, right?

John: Right, yeah. Let's see four so that means declarer is one, um, three, uh, seven, two. Does that make sense now? That doesn't add up. That didn't add up.

Phil: So if you give declarer seven hearts, um, so all right. So here's-here's-here's maybe some hints here. With three spades, Andy's gonna be raising me frequently, right. So-

John: Mm.

Phil: -I-I-I think I can put, um, Sam on three spades.

John: Mm.

Phil: You know, or maybe even four. So, I don't know. So, our agreement here is that, um, the lead of an ace is suit perfect. So it's more than just showing the queen, right?

John: Yeah.

Phil: So now I have an e- so now I'm thinking, well, maybe Andy's got a stiff spade. And I just need to give him a spade rough to hold this to four, right, because those diamond, you know, those diamonds are a big threat. So I played the ace of spades. And Andy has king doubleton of spades. And he made what I consider to be the defensive play of the tournament, he dumps his king of spades under my ace.

John: Mm.

Phil: Okay because he knows that I have to have the Ace Queen of spades and the ace of clubs for my opening bid, right?

John: Yeah.

Phil: So now it becomes easy, right? I play the queen of spades. Everybody follows. I play a third spade, boom. He gets to over up dummy and, um, down one.

John: Mm. Nice.

Phil: Yeah. Yeah, no-no, I mean, and-and and that's- see, that is the product. I mean, there's nothing brilliant about it but it's a product of discussing these types of carding situations with your partner. I-I think I might have mentioned, you know, in my- in my notes to you that, you know, Andy and I have been playing together for about five years and we have a really elaborate system that frankly is kick-ass. Um, and I'm writing a book on it, Shameless Plug.

Um, I don't know when it's going to be out. My goal is to finish it by the end of the year. Um, but the thing that we've worked the hardest on actually is our carding, not, you know, not on our-our bidding agreements. So, if you, um, give a-- you ever see- see-- Do you know Richard Pavlicek?

John: Yes. I mean, we're not, we're-- I know him, but we're not-- I-- we don't have a relationship other than just like we've been opponents before.

Phil: Richard's a great guy. Um, he has one of the best Bridge websites in the world. And, um, Richard really espouses playing a lot of count. Um, so, the default, you know, me-- I think if you were to sit down against a random American expert, the default, um-

John: Mm.

Phil: -agreement would be attitude. But Richard primarily, uh, focuses on count with attitude or even suit preference and some very, very defined situations and one of those for us is leading an ace, right? So, um, just being able to, um, and-and I-I just finished a Bridge Winners article that I think Eugene's gonna come out with.

And one of the things I say in it is, when you're playing in a long event, you can't sit there and try to figure out what your car- your partner's card means, you know. I mean, the standard, um, expert, um, advice is I'll- you know, I'll give you the- I'll-I'll send you the message that I think you need to know. Well, what the heck does that mean? I mean, am I giving you count, am I giving you attitude, am I just following suit? You know, you can't really tell. So, um, I think a good partnership needs to have-

John: Mm-hmm.

Phil: -very, very defined, um, notes as far as- like, well, I leave, you know, the king and the Jack third comes and Dummy and declare wins the eggs. "What does my card mean?" Well, you know, you need to play it a couple of different ways. You know, but-but I think, you know, you just have to-- I-- you need rules around things like this. Because when you're playing in a long event, you can't be taxing your brain and spending a lot of unnecessary energy on, um, trying to figure out what your own signal should mean.

John: Is this something that you got from Bart or Hammond?

Phil: Well, there-- most of them have a check. Um, I played with him, yeah. So, um, Bart's been a partner, um, we played, I don't know probably 10 times together here. Um, we were suppose to play in the- in the GNTs this year but, um, something called COVID happened, which kind of put an end to most people's plans for a lot of things. Um, but, um, yeah, with Bart-

John: Mm-hmm.

Phil: -we haven't had this type of discussion. I think there's a couple of good sources for this. It's a- really came from Pavlicek, you-you know, he's got all types of little nuggets of wisdom on his website. Um, but I've played with Richard myself and Richard's giving me some of his karting notes. And, um, and-and Jim Monday, actually has like kind of like the full set of Richard's notes. And-

John: Mm.

Phil: -you know, Jim has given me sort of some of the insight about- like when Richard doesn't play count. You know, so, we've- instead of trying to reinvent the wheel, we've adopted a lot of his approaches and-and personally, I think it's superior to-to just straight attitude. Um, the- another great source-

John: Mm.

Phil: -is, um, you know, who Krzysztof Martens is?

John: Yeah.

Phil: The Polish player?

John: Yeah, yeah, of course.

Phil: Yeah, so, Marten's has, um, I've got most of his books and he's got two books about karting called, um, The Guide Dog. And The Guide Dog is-- I mean, all of these books are pretty esoteric. Um, but he really talks-- it actually in one of his guide dog books, gets into a lot of good discussion about- like when is a count, when is it attitude or when is it like an alarm clock, for instance? Um, so, that was really the first exposure that I had to, "Oh, this count is actually pretty useful."

John: So, Dinkins was- he did have a stiff club on the hand?

Phil: Yeah, Sam was three. Anyway, he kind of a weird handy. It was three eight one one. So, if we don't get our tricks early, we're not going to get them at all.

John: Mm. What was your score on the hand?

Phil: 85%. So, that's a pretty nice result and kind of a bread and butter hand.

John: Mm. Mm. Until you play all aces or, uh, suit preference from partner?

Phil: We do, because we play uh-

John: Mm.

Phil: -we play rooster now leads, um, even against suits. You know, if I lead in ace, it's either like A sex or maybe a stiff ace. So, uh, the most important message that I want to get from my partner is, well, I mean, when-when I lead in ace, it usually means that, "Hey, I think this might be a cash-out situation," kind of tell me where your stuff is early. So, that's why I think that a sleeve is-is helpful there. Um, and same thing against Notre.

John: Mm.

Phil: It's like I might be- I might be just sort of making a stab, you know, leads. It's like well, I don't really know what to do here. And he can encourage clubs by, um, just giving me a middle club. So, you-you know, so, you kinda get the best of all worlds, assuming that he's got enough cards to signal with which is-

John: Mm.

Phil: -which can be a challenge sometimes but, um. Yeah, and-and it works really well with [unintelligible 00:25:13]. And I'm not sure that it works as well with- like a standard, um, ace from Ace King situation. But, yeah.

John: Are you playing in the USPF event that starts on, uh, Saturday?

Phil: No. I mean, I-I'm not-- I could have, um, I've-- I played the last, um, the last two weekends. Um, you know, I-I played on a, uh, N-A- N-A-O-B-C knockout team with, um, so, Haymont Law asked, um, Andy and I to play with, um, him and Rhys Milner and a local player named, um, Kristen Onsgaard.

John: Mm.

Phil: And, um, we. uh, we are moving to round 16 and this felt like a spin gold. Um, it wasn't quite, a quite as deep as the spin gold, but it wasn't that far off. I mean, if you look at the teams that entered this thing, you know, there-there was some serious depth. And, um, I-- and did you watch the final?

John: No, I was playing in a speedball, uh, silly me. [laughs]

Phil: G-go back and find the, um, uh, the-the twitch stream.

John: Yeah.

Phil: This be-- Yeah, you can get a replay of it. Um, so like, um, Bart's playing with kit and Bob's playing with, uh, Peter Wexel-

John: Mm-hmm.

Phil: -at the other table. And there's stuck like, I don't know, 30 amps-

John: Yeah.

Phil: -with like three boards to go, you know.

John: Yeah.

Phil: And-and I was actually watching the live twitch stream and I'm like, "Yeah, it's over." Especially when you've got Metwell in the match. I mean, Metwell has made an art of these like last minute comebacks. Um, so, they kinda got, you know, karma back on them for this. But like Bart just-- I-I talked to Bart about this three [unintelligible 00:27:03] that he played, you should look it up it's just like--

John: I've seen that one.

Phil: Oh, with the ace jack tight opposite the king ten seven fifth?

John: Yeah.

Phil: It's just like mind-boggling. And, um, you know, he told me that he was on Zoom with, um, with Mark. And Mark is like in with the spade and just- they just sort of like look at each other and make those- making three.

[laughter]

I mean, and then-- Come in. It's like look, everybody wants to see a winner of these events. But I thought it was actually a pretty cool thing to say 113 to 113 shake hands, we tie into discussion.

John: Yeah.

Phil: You know, but-

John: Yeah.

Phil: -and-and then there and there's- then there's some trolls that are saying that this-this is not a real Bridge result. It's like, "Guys, give me a break." This is like the first online, like a national knockout and you got the- get these guys saying that this result isn't legitimate. It's like seriously?

John: What, uh, what was Bart pretty fired up about, uh, about this like the tie, I mean, just, uh, not the tie, but just like, you know, doing-doing so well in the event?

Phil: Bart wasn't-- I mean, every-- I mean, everyone that played thought it was a great result, you know, and-and thought it was a fair result because you know-- [crosstalk]

John: I'm not talking about the time this thing was Bart like fired up to get back into the into the- into the-

Phil: Oh, um.

John: -finals and the thing.

Phil: Yeah, I mean, um, I mean, eh- you know, you-you know, Bart and Bob-

John: Mm.

Phil: -a-any event that they play in, they want to win. I mean- I-I mean, everybody does, right? But they [chuckles] unlike most people they actually have a good chance of doing it.

John: Mm.

Phil: Um, I-I don't know. I didn't really talk to Bart. I-I talk to Bart a couple of times a week usually and, um, you know, I-I didn't really get a sense of that. He was like, I mean. Like Montreal it didn't happen, this is the best that we can do for these types of events. So, you know, um, I think every-everyone really, really-- I mean, Kit wrote a really good article on Bridge Winners about sort of the whole experience.

And, um, it was spot on. I loved it. Um, I loved being on Zoom. Um, I, you know, I had, um, I had- I had Boyar for, um, uh, for a couple of quarters. No, I had Aspen for two quarters and I had Boyar for one. And they-they just they annihilated us. Uh, it-it was a fun match but they just- they crushed us.

John: Mm.

Phil: Um, and then I had, um, and then in our first-first two matches I had a, um-- No, I'm sorry. I had, um, [unintelligible 00:29:42] for one of those quarters. [unintelligible 00:29:44] for one, Boyar for one and Aspen for one. And, um, you know, [unintelligible 00:29:48] kind of like you know, got along really well and so did, you know, us and, you know, in the Norwegians and, you know. And it's like midnight there, right? So, you know, they're doing the best just to, you know, you and they played well. And the lack of sleep didn't seem to have bothered them too much. So, but, um, you know, it was- it was gre- it was a great-- it wasn't a good event. It was a great event.

John: Mm.

Phil: And the fact that, you know, the ACBL is able to, um, be flexible with its plans and not stick to-

John: Mm.

Phil: -[unintelligible 00:30:22] like, "Oh, a national has to be in real life." It's like, no. It's like we're not going to nationals this year. So, let's try to give the player something that they can like and, you know, I know that there's, you now, been these two recent online cheating scandals. And my understanding is, there's going to be more, um, some, there are like little negotiations being handled outside of Bridge

Winners [chuckles] and things like that. Um, but this is the best that we can do and we-we really have to make the most of it.

John: Did you have one of those little cameras behind you that, uh--

Phil: No. And my understanding is that not very many players did. Um, I think that if the ACBL is really gonna be serious about this and, you know, if, you know, if I had to guess, I would say that the future model is either is one of two things.

John: Yeah.

Phil: They're not-- I would be absolutely shocked if the ACBL says, "This is a one year experiment and it's done." I will be really shocked at that. I think what's going to happen is, you're either going to have maybe the whole nationals become strictly online. Okay? That's one possibility. And the other po- other possibilities you'll have-

John: Mm.

Phil: -some live events and some virtual events. You know, kind of what they're doing with the, um-

John: Yeah.

Phil: -it's called the robot invitational, you know. Since I won it, I should know what it- what it is. It's like- just like the robot invitational, right? It's like that's like an event that runs just before this like the nationals, right?

John: Yeah, yeah.

Phil: So, I-I think if you could see maybe-- I mean, because not everybody, for whatever reason, you know, some people can't travel, some people don't have the money to travel. You know, I mean, and nationals are expensive, you know, especially when you're playing in national events. You know, and, you know, if you're getting hired, well, that's not a problem, but if you're not getting hired, you know, you can plan on spending two or three grand over-over 10 days just to, you know, and- and, you know-

John: Mm.

Phil: -that-- So I-I-I love the idea-

John: Yeah.

Phil: -of having like a virtual national, like alongside a-a regular event.

John: Mm-hmm.

Phil: Did you play in any of the event- a-any of the events?

John: No, I didn't. Uh, I had, uh-uh, I-I was thinking about it and I-I had a partner, but, uh, we didn't, uh, we weren't able to get teammates.

Phil: Okay.

John: So.

Phil: Yeah, it's, um, yeah, it's expected. Um, yeah, I-I actually talked, I won't say who he was, but I was talking to one of the directors and he was telling me that he would be surprised if Austin is the next national and that's fall of '21. You know, um, it sounds like St. Louis is sort of on the- on the boat. Excuse me, at this point, I think- I think for a lot of people, you-- we're gonna need a vaccine, you know, for them to feel totally safe about this, you know.

And-and the best- and the best thing to believe is done is cancel, um, um, was cancel Columbus. I mean, I was looking forward to Columbus, and I was looking forward to Montreal. Um, but I-- and I'm-- I was looking forward to Tampa, right? But, you know, we just have to do what we can do. I apologize, the dogs are going ballistic in the background. I think my wife just got home, but that's--

John: And now you're a Premier's Pa- Premier Paris champion.

Phil: I am, and so, if nothing else happens, like in a tell, I-I can tell my grant, this is what's fun. So, um, I get to tell Bart and Bob that I was the-- Andy and I were the only winners of the- of the summer-

John: [chuckles]

Phil: -in AOBC.

John: What did they say about that?

Phil: Oh, I-

John: Did you like that, did you?

Phil: -I've actually got to see him tomorrow night so, uh, I'm gonna, uh, that's the first thing I would say to them.

John: What are you guys doing tomorrow night?

Phil: We're actually having them over for dinner.

John: Bart and Bob, Bob's birthday is today I think, isn't it?

Phil: It is, happy-happy birthday, Mr. Hammond. Yeah, oh.

John: Mm-hmm.

Phil: And I-I-I put a question on Bridge Winners and, um, I-I'll actually give you a hint. So, there's another semi-famous Bridge player who shares Bob's birthday. Do you know who that is?

John: I mean, I know Barack Obama's birthday was yesterday and that he doesn't play Bridge, I don't think.

Phil: [chuckles]

John: So, Megan Markel's birthday was also yesterday.

Phil: Okay.

John: Oh, today is-- Sorry, these are two days ago, two days ago. I have a friend that was born on the August 4th, she's just turned 40. Um, I have no idea who- I have no idea. No idea who.

Phil: He's one of your gu- he was one of your guests. So, um, it was, uh, Holzhauer.

John: Uh.

Phil: Holzhauer, James Holzhauer shares Bob's birthday, August.

John: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

Phil: If you- if you ever wanna know somebody's birthday, ask Bart. Bart knows not only their birthday but the year that they were born.

John: Well, Bart, I doubt he knows my birthday.

Phil: Um, don't be-

John: [chuckles]

Phil: -if you told them once, he'll remember it.

John: I don't if-

Phil: [chuckles]

John: -I don't remember I told him.

Phil: No, he's just, he's crazy like that. It's like-

John: Yeah.

Phil: -I-I call them, um-- I went mountain biking a couple of nights ago and I was called him on my way home. And he goes--

John: Yeah.

Phil: I was just on the phone with Mark Feldman. And I go, um-

John: Mm.

Phil: -I go, um, Jay, Jason, Jason [inaudible 00:35:39] and, um-- I said, oh, you know, it's like, um, uh, "I'm just curious how old was Mark?" And he told me his birthday and the year he was born just like-- "Is that accurate enough?" "Yeah."

John: Wow.

Phil: Yeah. It's just like, wow.

John: [giggles] So, let's go back to the-- Did you play with Bob? You were- you were telling me you played with Bob.

Phil: Yeah. So, um, there's two regionals in the DF. Well, two-two main regionals in the DFW area. And, um, Jonathan actually had flown down and we played three days. Had a great time. Um, and he- but he flew back, um, Monday and I told Jimmy, I said, "I'm gonna play three days with Jonathan, but not a four."

John: It felt like-

Phil: [chuckles]

John: -the story already.

Phil: Oh, no.

John: [chuckles]

Phil: This is- this is awesome. So-

John: [chuckles]

Phil: -so-so-so Petra calls me up and she goes, "What are you doing tomorrow?" I said, "I'm not playing Bridge. If-if-if that answers your question." And-and she goes, "Mm, that's too bad because, um, Bob was suppose to play with Barbra who, rest in peace, passed away a couple of weeks ago." Um, with Barbra and Barbra is not feeling well-

John: Mm.

Phil: -and he needs a partner. And I-I look at Kenny and the-the tension-

John: Mm.

Phil: -is just palpable, right? And, um-

[phone vibrations]

-and-and she already knows what I'm about to ask her, right? And I go, "But, honey, it's Hammond." Okay, it's like, "Am I ever going to get this chance again to play with-

John: Mm-hmm.

Phil: -the great one?

John: Yeah. Uh-huh.

Phil: And, um, and-and-and I-I had to do some groveling, but, you know, at the end of the day, um, she was fine with it. And, um, so--

John: Because she was there when you're talking to Petra on the phone, she was standing in front of you as [rosstalk].

Phil: She was standing right there. Yeah, she's- and she- and she could pra- and she's-she's not dumb.

John: Yeah.

Phil: You know, she has to get work out while Petra's calling me on-on a Sunday night, right?

John: Right. Yeah.

Phil: Especially from my responses to her.

John: Mm-hmm.

Phil: So, um, so I- so I agreed to play with her. And, um, I was having, um, with him, I-- we had Jonathan over for dinner and Tom and Judy Peters who was really good, you know, players.

John: Mm.

Phil: And, um, so, Bob's like, "Can you talk about a card?" And I'm like, "I gotta get, I got guest-

John: Mm.

Phil: -over huggable. Why don't we have breakfast?? He goes, "Great."

John: Mm-hmm.

Phil: So, game time was at 10:00, you're gonna love this. So, [chuckles] um, he-- I go, "Let's meet at 8:30."

John: Mm.

Phil: He goes, "Great." So, I show up at 8:05, he shows up at 10 after 8:00.

John: Yeah.

Phil: I'm glad I wasn't late for this one. John, for the next 90 minutes, I am writing. He's just- he is just like- it's-it's like this Oracle, the stream of consciousness. Okay, you know, like, you know- you know, one diamond, one spade, if you bet you on a, you know, just like all of these like agreements, I took 13 pages of notes in 90 minutes. And 90% of the stuff I'd never-

John: Mm.

Phil: -even heard of and-and I consider myself to be pretty knowledgeable about- about Bridge systems, right?

John: Yeah.

Phil: So, I was like-- I just-- I mean, just listening to this light just flow was just like amazing. And so like when I'm done here, I'm just like, you know, I'm looking at all these like sheets of paper or trying to figure this stuff out. And, um, I still have- I still have the notes by the way. So, but that-that was my hand experience. We did good, we didn't do great. Um, I think we were second or third in the event, but-- I mean, I was- I was pretty nervous as you might imagine.

John: Was it a team or a part of the event?

Phil: It was a team event. We played with, um, Hammond and Petra as teammates. So, um, who are a great partnership. They just, you know, I mean, um, in two thousand and- 2019, Hammond calls me up and he goes, "Okay, um, we're- you're gonna be our local teammate." I said, "Okay, cool, I love to play with it." He goes-- I go, "Who do you want to play with?" He goes, "Anyone you want?" So I probably played with half a dozen different Dallas players, you know, in the events teammates so that-that was a blast. So, I don't-- I mean, I don't have any--

John: Mm.

Phil: I play a lot with [unintelligible 00:39:47]. He's probably my most regular in the Dallas area. I play occasionally Bart, but beyond that, I've played with probably a dozen people since I've lived here. And, you know, it's-it's been great.

John: Mm.

Phil: I mean, Dallas, it's a-- I mean, if you think about like Bridge cities in the US, Vegas is great, um, Florida's great, New York is great, Dallas-

John: Yeah.

Phil: -Dallas is great. I mean, those are- those are your four big ones. And, um, you know, moving-moving to Dallas, we've only lived here for three years. Um, it has been just such a- such a great move for us.

John: It seems like it and, I mean, just the-the-the times we've communicated, like and just listening to you talk, I mean, it sounds like you're really getting to spend a lot of quality time with these guys, not just at the bridge table but also away from the table?

Phil: Yeah.

John: [clears throat]

Phil: So, you gonna ask me the-the two irons.

John: Wait. I-I do wanna ask you about that but before that-

Phil: [chuckles] All right. It's your show.

John: What was Kimmy's gripe about you playing with, uh, you're playing bridge on the- on-- was it a- was it a holiday weekend?

Phil: Yes, and no. I mean, yes. It-it was on Monday, right? Um, 'cause-

John: Yeah.

Phil: -it was on Labor Day. But it's like-- We've been married for 32 years-

John: Mm-hmm.

Phil: -and, um, you know, we've raised three kids together. And I played Bridge before I knew Kimmy. And this is really kind of a shout out to anyone who loves to play Bridge but has a wi- like a spouse who's not a Bridge player.

John: Mm.

Phil: There's a- there's a balance here-

John: Yeah.

Phil: -you know, and-and you're always seeking- you're always trying to find that balance. And, you know, it might be-- Well, there's a- there's a national coming up and I would go for 10 days. I'll go for 3 or I'll go for 5. You know, and-and this was a compromise that we make. I said that I would play-

John: Mm.

Phil: -three days, but not four.

John: Mm.

Phil: And I-- and this is a commitment that I made.

John: Mm.

Phil: So, um, she was justifiably able to say, "Yeah, I'd really not had you play." And- and-and-and-and, honestly, I- if you were anybody else on the planet, I wouldn't have said, yes.

John: In your note, it said that you quit Bridge for 13 years, I think?

Phil: 13 years. Yeah. Yeah. I, um, you know, so, I-I played Montana. Uh, graduated from the University of Montana. Um, we moved to Southern California-

John: Mm.

Phil: -in like '87 and, um, you know, we had kids. [unintelligible 00:42:10]. Um--

John: Did she go to, uh, University of Montana also?

Phil: Yep. That's where we met. That's-that's-- She's from LA but, um, her family is from Montana. So, um, you know, so, for like 13 years, I-I basically gave up. I-I actually gave up my CPL membership like in the early '90s for a couple of years. And, um, but then what sort of saved me was Okbridge. Um, and, uh, something called the imagination network that sort of came at about the same time. And I could

go onto this online platform from my home, not leave my kids, not leave Kimmy. And, um, like put the kids to bed and log on and next to that I would see [unintelligible 00:42:54] I would see Solloway.

Um, Hammond was on there. I mean, like it was just like- it was like a virtual tournament every night and for someone that- with small kids and has like a normal working schedule, there's no- that was like- that was- I mean, that-that was like wonderful. So, I played on Okbridge for about five years. So, I kinda got back into the, you know, and it's like, you know, as a player, when you're out of circulation, it's tough because no one really knows who you are.

John: Yeah.

Phil: So-so if, you know, you kinda have to like reestablish yourself.

John: Yeah.

Phil: And, um, [clears throat] you know, I-I don't know if you ever knew, um,-- do you know Chris Larson?

John: Um, no.

Phil: So, Chris was a really- he was kind of like the King of Orange County Bridge, which is where we lived. And, um, he played a lot with a guy named Joe Kimball and there were like the local- like really good players. And Chris kind of like took me under his wing, you know, because, um, I knew him actually before my layoff. And, um, and Chris was like a frequent teammate and, uh, occasional partner. And, um--

John: Mm-hmm.

Phil: Chris died about five years ago. Chris was like my dad. Joe-Joe's, um, Joe still lives in, uh, Newport Beach. Um-

John: Mm.

Phil: -Joe is like my uncle. Um, I need to call my uncle more often, I think.

John: But-- So, the 13 years that was-- you went 13 years without playing tournament.

Phil: Yes.

John: Mm.

Phil: Yes. Yes. Um, Vegas 2000 was my first.

John: Mm.

Phil: Actually Anaheim. Anaheim 2000 was my first, uh, tournament back. Yup.

John: So, you stopped playing in 1987. Like was it a deliberate decision? Like [crosstalk]

Phil: Oh, yeah. No I've--

John: [crostalk] Bridge.

Phil: Well, it was-- I mean, it's-it's all about priorities, right? And, you know, if you're a professional Bridge player, that's one thing. But if you're doing bridge, um, as someone that gets hired occasionally, but someone who has, um, a career, bridge can be a huge distraction-

John: Mm.

Phil: -you know? So, I-I-I-I-I mentally cut the cord.

John: Mm.

Phil: Of the game. I mean, Kimmy didn't ask me to stop. I just said. It's like, "I'm done with this, um, for now." Um, I-I think in- I think in-in my heart, I knew that I would return to the game at some point and-- 'cause it's-- A, it's a great game. And B, the people in the game of second to none. So, you know, I'm just so happy that. I, you know, I-I'm just happy to be part of this community.

John: Well, I-I-I remember when we met, it was in Philadelphia at the- at the National Center in 2012. And, uh, and you were- you were- you were-- as you're speaking about the community, I mean, you were very open and-and welcoming to me. And, uh, so, I've enjoyed the back and forth that the podcast has created between us. Um--

Phil: Mm, me too. And, um, I mean, you-you're providing a great-- I mean, the movie, the podcast, I mean, you're-you're giving back a lot. And, um, people should be thankful for that and recognize you occasionally.

John: [chuckles] We're actually re-cutting the movie to-to an hour and, uh, hopefully, making it more watchable 'cause [chuckles] I-I-I would like to have more people see it than have seen it here to [unintelligible 00:46:26].

Phil: Yeah. So, um-- So, can I tell you my part story?

John: Is this about the two-iron?

Phil: Yes.

John: Yes, please.

John: This is one of my favorite stories. So, um-um, so-so Bart knew, um, Walter Schaffer, um, back in Chicago. And Walter was a friend of mine in Southern California. And, um, when I was-- when I moved to Texas, I knew that Walter knew Bart and I'm like, "Hey, I don't really know any of the Texas players really well. You know, I kinda know of them, but, you know, would you mind making an introduction?" He goes, "Sure." So, um, he kinda makes an introduction with email. And, um, Walter goes, "Now, you're both golfers, so, you should take him golfing." I go, "Oh, I'd love to." You know, 'cause I, you know, I-I-I love to play golf.

John: Yeah, me too.

Phil: Oh, we should talk about that. Um, so-so-so, actually-actually, so this will give you context if you're-

John: Mm.

Phil: -already a golfer. So, Walt goes, "I'm going to bet you that you hit your two iron", not that he didn't have a two-iron, "But you hit your two iron about as far as-

John: Mm-hmm.

Phil: -Bart hits his driver." I said, "Oh, okay. All right. That sounds-- so that sounds interesting." So we-we played around. And, um, by the way, I love to play golf with Bart because the- and-and not because of the golf because I get to listen to stories about Sams, Sam [unintelligible 00:47:50], you know, and Vick Mitchell for four hours in a golf cart, you know. And that's- to me, that's priceless.

John: Yeah.

Phil: Um, so, we finished the round and I call Walt and I go, "You know, it's not a two-iron that I hit as far as this driver." I said, "It's my [unintelligible 00:48:07]."

[laughter]

Phil: So, um, we-we haven't played in about a year. Um, I-I mean, I-- we should go out again because I-I lov- I do love playing golf with Bart.

John: Yeah.

Phil: Um, he-he loves the game. Um, and it's a great social experience. I mean-

John: Mm.

Phil: -but a lot of my free time now has been going more towards mountain biking. Um-

John: Mm-hmm.

Phil: -and, um, I don't really have a lot of people to go mountain biking with. But I did take Compton out mount-mountain biking about a year ago.

John: [laughs] Oh my God. Think this is in the notes. There was something about Compton.

Phil: It-- I-- if it wasn't, it should be because-

John: Mm-hmm.

Phil: -um-- so, I have, couple of mou-

John: Yeah. Yeah-yeah-yeah. The Compton mountain biking. That's right. [chuckles]

Phil: So, it's, um, it's like in about April and it's still kinda wet in Dallas and we go-go out on this trail and it's like a little bit muddy.

John: Yeah.

Phil: And there's like a lot of leaves on it, so it's kinda slippery. And, you know, and Chris is-- he's kind of a big guy, right?

John: Does he have a bike? Does he have a mountain bike?

Phil: No, I let him use mine.

John: Okay.

Phil: I-I-I-I have two.

John: Okay.

Phil: So, I, you know, I'm kinda keeping an eye- an eye on him behind me and we're kinda going along.

John: Mm.

Phil: And-and, um, I've got this video of him like trudging up the hill. It's like- just like a [unintelligible 00:49:24], "Damn, this is really good." So, about five minutes later, I'm going down a hill myself and I catch like a patch of wet leaves and I tap the front brake a little bit too much and I go ass over teakettle off the trail and I actually slammed into a tree.

John: Oh my God.

Phil: Oh, I-I didn't break anything, but, um, I'm just like covered with mud. And, um, we just--

John: Does the ass over teakettle mean you flipped? You went head first over--

Phil: S-sorry. I went- I went- I went-- Some people call it that- some people call it over the falls.

John: [chuckles]

Phil: So, you- so, you're basically going over my handlebars, you know. And I'm not, I'm not a spring- I'm not a spring chicken, right?

John: Mm.

Phil: And, um, actually I-I landed in some brush and I- and I just smacked up against the tree. And, um, and it's like when you mountain bike and you wreck, it's- it- it's generally more. It's like it doesn't hurt. You just feel embarrassed. And you're-

John: Yeah.

Phil: -and you like laugh about it but I'm just covered in mud. And I'm covered in leaves. So we head back and we had dinner with Kimmy and Donna that night. And Chris doesn't have like a drop of mud on him. And I'm just covered. And Chris goes, "Yeah, one of us wrecked today and it wasn't me," you know.

[laughter]

John: Do you have a photo? Do you have a photo of you and Chris in your mountain biking outfits?

Phil: Somewhere I think on my phone I have the video of Chris, right.

John: I would- I would love to- I would love to include that on the website.

Phil: Maybe do it after, uh, after you, uh, interview him. After you interview him, yeah, yeah, because that-that would actually be kind of nice. Yeah, yeah ask him about the mountain biking with Phil sometimes. [laughs]

John: Um, what else did I want to ask you? I wanted to ask-- So when you and Bart play, you must play from different tees, right?

Phil: Um, we did and then- and then I always felt like kind of a tool just, you know, hitting for the blues and he's hitting from the whites.

John: Yeah.

Phil: And, uh, there's a couple of other guys, um, you know that Bart works-works with Bob, right?

John: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Phil: Yeah, so there was a couple of- there was one other guy from SCA that joined us, um, in the group. And then I think one of his friends. So they would all hit from the whites and I'm like, "Well, I'll just hit from the whites."

John: I've been playing a lot of golf recently.

Phil: Yeah.

John: Working hard on my game. I actually had a golf lesson this afternoon.

Phil: Oh yeah.

John: Oh okay. So, um, how good are you?

Phil: I've been shooting, uh, I've been shooting in the mid-70s, uh, a lot recently.

John: That's solid. That's really solid. So you're like, uh, like so you're like a little single.

John: Yeah, yeah, my handicap. Uh, so I used to work for a hedge fund. And in 2012, I quit and I went to my first nationals, which was Memphis.

Phil: Mm-hmm.

John: And my goal, at my going away lunch was that I wanted to become a scratch golfer. And my index at that point was like between maybe one and two. And literally my index got worse, worse, worse, worse, worse. Like it never got better. And like I- like I retired from this job. I quit this job. And I have all the free time in the world and I got worse at golf.

Phil: That's funny.

John: So, it was incredibly frustrating. Um, but recently, I talked about this with Hampson. I actually got Hampson a PlaneMate. I've-I've been working with this training aid called a PlaneMate and it's helped me so much. Like it's--

Phil: Oh, really.

John: Yes. Like I had- I had a- I had to drive. I had a short game lesson today and a driver lesson yesterday. And in my driver lesson, he was telling me the- he was telling me to get to like my finish because I wasn't getting to my finish.

Phil: Mm-hmm.

John: And I was able to- like the first move from the PlaneMate is I was able to use that as like a marker on the way to my finish because it's like- it's like just beyond the ball. And I know what that-that position should feel like. And it's just like- it's like I've kind of- the challenge for me is like is getting golf lessons and then being able to actually take that out on the course.

So, for years, I would get golf lessons, and then as soon as I started hitting it badly, I'd be like want to go back to the teacher. So the PlaneMate has helped me to understand the game, like to understand my swing in a way that like that allows like it- it's-it's like additive to-to the process. And, uh, I-I-I do think that I will. I do think that I'm going to get to scratch.

Phil: Have you? So, what's your best game?

John: Um, I've never broken par for 18 holes. So, like I'm on-on the verge of that.

Phil: Okay. I had a- I-I used to be a 6. I'm-I'm more like a 9 or 10 now. Um, I had a put for a 69 in 19- 2001 and I lift it out. So I've never- I've broken par but I've never broken 70 but-

John: Mm.

Phil: -um, our son is like 66, has pro length. He's really good.

John: Wow.

Phil: Yeah, he's-he's-- Oh, John, he hits like [unintelligible 00:54:41] like 195.

John: Mm.

Phil: 200. Which is- he- his length is insane. So--

John: Mm. How old is he?

Phil: Um, he's 32.

John: Uh, wow.

Phil: Yeah, he lives in, um, lives in near Phoenix. So we, um, um, and I'm a grandfather. He has two kids.

John: Wow.

Phil: Two boys. We're really proud of them, Archer and Adam. And, um, we saw them about a month ago and we're gonna- I think we're gonna take a trip in a couple of months and go out there and we love- we love the golf and we love the mountain bike together. So it's a little of fun.

John: Mm. Mm. Is he your oldest?

Phil: Yeah, yeah, got three, um, a boy and two girls. All three kids have been caddies, uh NABCs. So that's kind of cool. So no one in the family than me is, uh, is, you know, is a Bridge player but, um, but they've all been caddies. So they've all kind of been part of the experience.

John: Mm-hmm.

Phil: You know, so to speak. Um, yeah, I think the last one was was Reno, two Reno's ago when, um, when the oldest and the youngest were caddies.

John: Before you go, I want to ask you about interviewing for the- I mean, there's a couple of things that I want to ask you but I'm also sensitive to the fact that your wife got home and--

Phil: No.

John: Okay.

Phil: She-she knows we're chatting.

John: Okay.

Phil: So-so I want to ask you about the-the CEO applying for the ACBL CEO job. And I also-

Phil: Yeah.

John: -wanna to ask you about the honeypot, the cheating-

Phil: Oh, okay.

John: -in Bridge and current scandals.

Phil: Sure. So, um, so when, um, so when, uh, Bahar left the CEO job, the ACBL had posted an opening. And, um, I mean, you know. I mean, Bridge is, um, Bridge is in my DNA. Um, and I want to see the game, um, not just survive but thrive just like you do. And, um, I felt like I had, um, you know, some good organizational skill, um, just from my- you know, just from my work environment. And, um, I was honored to be one of the finalists for the job. And, um, I-I had like a three-hour interview with, um, some of the board members a year ago. Last September, I think is what it was.

Uh, I get my years mixed up. I think- I think it was September of last year. And, um, uh, it went well. Um, I mean, there were some things that they- I think that they were looking for that, um, that really weren't on my résumé. Um, I think they liked my passion, I think they liked my vision. Um, but I think they wanted to see some other things. Um, but you know, we-we left in good terms. I still speak to them. And, um. And, I mean, Joe Jones, um, was the CFO. Now he's- I don't think they call him CEO anymore. I think they call him, uh, they go back to the exec-exec-execu- executive director.

Um, and he's done a great job. Um, you know, the league had made some really bad decisions. You know, and if you ever have any doubt, you can read about them on Bridge Winners, um, like in 17, 18 and 19. And I think Joe has done a really good job especially managing the league through this COVID crisis. Um, so, I mean, hats off to him. Um, I-I hope that, um, we can use, the-- I-I think that could be an opportunity for Bridge that. I-I don't know if you saw this but there was an article in the New York times when COVID first came out.

Phil: Yeah.

John: It basically said this is like a great opportunity for you to learn- to learn how to play Bridge because Bridge is a complicated game. And you just can't like learn in 10 minutes but people have a lot of-- I mean, I don't know about Virginia now but, um, certainly, in a lot of places, people are still, you know, kind of stuck, you know, stuck in their homes and this is still a great opportunity to learn the game. And I hope that the game has grown, um, as a result of COVID. So, um, I mean, hats off to how well the league is doing and always.

John: Where was the three-hour interview?

Phil: It was virtual. We just did a Zoom chat, yeah.

John: Mm. And were you-- So you were in Dallas already at that point?

Phil: I was. I was, um, just, um, put on a jacket and a tie and sat in my dining room and, you know, chatted with him for three hours.

John: And what did you think after? Did you do you feel like they told you during the interview that they weren't gonna hire you or?

Phil: I would say that I made an impression on two of the three. One of the people interviewing me, I did not. Based on the questions I was being asked, I could tell that I wasn't going to get their support.

John: Mm.

Phil: Um, but two of the three, I felt like maybe not absolute but I think that they, um, I think they-they liked what they hear- what they heard. But, honestly-honestly, John, it wasn't my time. You know, may- you know, maybe there will be someday, I don't know. I'm-I'm-I'm super happy in my career now. Um, I'm gonna be working for at least another 10 years. And, uh-

John: Mm.

Phil: -you know, look, it's in the cards, it's in the cards. But, uh, again, I think, and- and-and this is- this is- this is nothing against Joe. I think Joe is doing a great job. And I think that he was-- I think Joe was the right choice.

John: Mm. Mm.

Phil: So.

John: Did you have any like initiatives that you- that you were using as like a-- as a platform for your-

Phil: Mm-hmm.

John: -for your [crosstalk]?

Phil: Abso-Absolutely.

John: [clears throat]

Phil: Absolutely. No, I, um, I had basically a platform of like 10 things. I could not tell you any of them now because they've-they've kind of been discouraged from my- from my brain, um-

John: It must have been really good. [laughs]

Phil: Uh, apparently not good enough.

John: [chuckles]

Phil: So-

John: Um, what does the- [crosstalk]

Phil: But not-- Honestly, I was just-- I was really just honored to be considered

John: Mm-hmm.

Phil: You know, because-because it's a- it's a huge responsibility. Um, you know, it's a- it's a great role and I was frankly just honored to be considered-

John: Mm.

Phil: -for it.

John: Well, you have a good attitude about it.

Phil: Mm-hmm. That's right. [chuckles]

John: What is this honeypot? You said cheating in Bridge in current scandals, a-- the honeypot quote [unintelligible 01:01:16].

Phil: Yeah, so, um, I don't know. I-I-I-I kinda have a feeling that there are some people in Bridge-

John: Mm-hmm.

Phil: -that are, um, they're opportunistic about this, um, especially if they want to perhaps pursue a professional career. But even if they don't wanna pursue a professional career, I think that, um, you know, there's a lot of status, there's a lot of glory in doing well in-in Bridge. And if you're at a live tournament, you don't always have-

John: Mm-hmm.

Phil: -the, you know, "the opportunity to." Um, but I think that online, it's almost like, uh, you know, you can think of it like an unlocked door, right? And, um, in-in IT-

John: Mm-hmm.

Phil: -and I'm sure this is a term used in other places. There's this- there's a term called a honeypot. And what a honeypot is, um, in computer security is, say a hacker gets into your system. And there's a folder that says like financial information or passwords, or something like that, right? I mean, that's going to be like the first place that they wanna go, right? Well-

John: Yeah.

Phil: -turns out that this is actually, you know, maybe a trap for them to, uh, you know-

John: Mm.

Phil: -if anybody ever opens this folder, they know that, you know, you have, um, a bad actor inside your system, right?

John: Mm.

Phil: So, that's- and-and they call that a honeypot.

John: Right.

Phil: So I-I-I kind of feel like online Bridge can be a honeypot in the sense in that you have some opportunistic people. It's, you know, [unintelligible 01:02:45] if-if, um, if I wanted to call up my partner during a session and tell him my hand and vice versa, it would be easier to do. Um, I think the recent scandals were more about self kibitzing. But in the- in the ACBL games, you can't sell kibitz.

John: Mm-hmm.

Phil: You know, it's just because kibitzers are barred, right?

John: Mm.

Phil: Um-

John: Mm.

Phil: -but-but I think the soft kibitzing happened in some of these other, uh, events that allowed kibitzing. Um, but it's- so is not just one person that has that opportunity. Um, if you have two bad actors that decide to collude, um, I mean, so like in the online knockout-

John: Mm-hmm.

Phil: -we were on the Zoom call the entire time. So, I mean, so it's not like I could be on the phone with Andy, you know, during that entire time and telling each other our hands, right? Because you would just see it on the Zoom call. Um, I wish the premier pairs would have been like that. Um, but it wasn't. So I think there was a certain tacit level of trust when it came to the players. Um, fortunately, everyone di-did well event, there weren't any like unknowns. But, you know, that people, and immediately weren't like-

John: Mm.

Phil: -you know, like-like-like top national experts but, you know, everybody that did well in the event is someone you would have heard of and has done reasonably well at national events before.

John: Mm-hmm.

Phil: So, I-- that was, um, you know, and I actually talked to somebody today and- and the word from, um, Horn Link is that they don't feel like anybody was really gaming, um, the system during these two, um, NA-NA-NAOBCs, which is- which is really gratifying because, you know, this is the platform of the future. And, you know, we need to- we need to figure out how to make it work.

John: Mm.

Phil: Yeah, so, um, you know, it was just- it was super exciting to win. We had some- we had some great hands. Um, I just wish- I just wish to count it towards grand life master, that's the only thing.

John: You are a diamond life master according to Michael.

Phil: I am, I am. Um, got that last year, so, you know, my-my point total is- isn't escalating very quickly this year like everybody else's.

John: How many points did you get for, uh, for the premier appearance?

Phil: 70

John: Mm.

Phil: So, it was, um, I-I-I think the way they did the, uh, online tournaments was- it was roughly 80% of what a nationally rated event would be. Um, but they didn't play out- they didn't pay out platinums either. So it was like 70 goals versus like if you- like if you win like the Warner, um, I think it's a 100, um, platinums obviously or the, um, maybe the two-day LMs. You know, the- you know, this felt like- th-this felt like a- like a Warner-

John: Mm-hmm.

Phil: -but on the new calendar, the Warner used to be a really pretty weak pair event. Because it started on the second day of the, um, of the Spingold.

John: Mm.

Phil: Um, so you-you-- I mean, like most of the good players are still on the Spingold, so-

John: Mm-hmm.

Phil: -the [unintelligible 01:05:57]. But-but now it starts on like the third or the fourth day-

John: Mm.

Phil: -of the Spingold, so it's a lot- it's a much stronger event. So--

John: Did you play with Andrew and Andy in, um, San Francisco?

Phil: We did. We played in the North American Swiss. Um, we were- we had a good first day. We were second after the first day. Uh, we had a bad second day, but we made the cut. Um, we were top 20-

John: Mm-hmm.

Phil: -um, after the second day. Third day was sort of up and down, um, more top 10. I think we were somewhere in the top 20.

John: Mm.

Phil: So, we played with, um, Alex [unintelligible 01:06:43] and, uh, Bob Eder and a husband and wife from Stockton, California whose name escapes me but were- but were really, really nice people.

John: Mm-hmm.

Phil: And-and, you know, Alex is Finn's dad.

John: Yeah, I know, I know that. I-I know- I know- I know that. Who do you think is better, Alex or Finn?

Phil: I'm not gonna answer that. [laughs]

John: Mm.

Phil: Um, put it- put it this way, um, Finn will be better, um, Finn is- Finn has got-- Finn, I've had him as a teammate in some of the Reynolds matches.

John: Yeah.

Phil: And I've looked at some of the hands and the level of maturity that he shows is amazing. Because normally, like a 16-year-old, they're just doing all this crazy stuff. You know, just to sort of push the envelope. Finn, Finn plays like an old man, you know. He just- he really stays in the boat and, uh, Jacob- his partner, Jacob Freeman, another [inaudible 01:07:46], um, yeah, just, uh, they're just-- I mean, they're just--

John: Mm-hmm.

Phil: I love to play with them. And, um, it's-it's great to see them-

John: Mm.

Phil: -participating with some of the game's legends like, you know, uh, Kit and Bart and Bob and Peter in this last thing I mean. What-- I mean, that's a story right there.

John: Yeah, I'm looking forward to asking as to how that team came together.

Phil: I was sort of jealous when-when-- I mean, because I-- because Kit and Bart were, um, and in-in Warner rentals matches, um, I think like the shorter one.

John: Mm-hmm.

Phil: They were teammates and, um, we got along great. I, you know, like I'm-I'm super happy that they teamed up as-as-as a sixsome. I'm sure if they would have allowed eight, they would have asked us on the team.[laughs] But-but on-- I don't know. I'm just- I'm Joshing because I'm sure- I'm sure they're gonna be listening to this all.

John: [laughs] I don't think Bob will be listening to this, maybe Bart.

Phil: Um, I will, uh, I will- I will give a-a serious plug to, um, to all of our house-

John: Mm.

Phil: -guests tomorrow night.

John: Okay.

Phil: Uh-huh, for the show, yeah. 'Cause anyway, you have a great show and, um, but it's like-

John: Mm.

Phil: -Bob knows about it because he interviewed him. So I'm- I don't know, [crosstalk].

John: Yeah, but I-I tried to- I asked-- I was trying to help but I was like- I-I think I asked him on the show if he'd ever listened to a podcast before and he said- I think I was pretty sure he said no. [laughs]

Phil: You know, if you were ever to have like a- like a guest come back, um, how many Bobby Wolf stories did he tell you, uh?

John: Zero.

Phil: Zero. Oh, God. You could fill up an entire podcast with, uh, with Bobby Wolf stories.

John: Oh, sure. [chuckles]

Phil: Oh my God. His w-wolfy stories are just-- I mean, you will- you will be in convulsive laughter for-

John: [chuckles]

Phil: -the entire time. They are so good.

John: Uh, so they're coming over for dinner. Is-is, uh, the-the-- I mean, you- are you gonna be eating outside or what's the- how are you- how are you gonna?

Phil: I don't know. I'm probably gonna barbecue steaks.

John: Mm.

Phil: Um, that been it's-it's mostly Ki-

John: Mm.

Phil: Whatever Kimmy wants.

John: Mm.

Phil: You know, jo- we'll probably sit inside. It's-it's, uh, it's Dallas in the summertime, so-

John: Oh, it's too hot.

Phil: It's-it's starting to- last week was nice, but it's starting to warm up a little bit. Um, and the bugs are starting to be kind of oppressive.

John: Mm-hmm.

Phil: So, you know.

John: Mm-hmm.

Phil: So, we'll-we'll probably-

John: Mm.

Phil: -hang out inside, but, uh, yeah. We've had- we've had, um, we- we've had Hamman over, we've had Petra over, we've had, um, Bob over a few times and never had Bob- never had Bob in the house before.

John: So, how did it happen that Bob- that-that Bob got invited then?

Phil: Because we were, um- it was just originally going to be kind of a smaller group and, you know, it's like, "Hey, maybe we should make us-- make this a celebration because of-

John: Mm.

Phil: -you know, how they did and how I did in the, uh-

John: Right.

Phil: -in the tournament last weekend, so."

John: Are any of your children still at home?

Phil: Nope. We are empty nesters.

John: And what's been the react- what's been the response of your family to this, uh, to winning this event?

Phil: Um--

John: [laughs]

Phil: I don't know that they get the gravity of it.

John: Yeah.

Phil: You know-

John: Yeah.

Phil: -um, like my dad, I talk to my dad every Wednesday, um, he lives near Palm Springs. Um, and, um, I was kind of explaining to him sort of the-the platinum pairs qualifying thing.

John: Yeah. Mm.

Phil: Um, and, um, I mean, my stepmom is an ACBL member, so, they get the bulletin. So they-they sort of see things like this and it's like, "Oh wow, look at this."

John: Mm-hmm.

Phil: You know, so it's-it's cool.

John: But Kimmy and the kids are-- I mean, like how did you find out that you won?

Phil: Um, so, I-I write about a little bit this on Bridge winners, but coming-coming-- So one thing about an ACBL pairs event online is, it's kind of bar-barometer, right? You know how well you're doing-

John: Mm.

Phil: -through the entire event, right? And-and that could be just- that could be nerve-wracking. I mean, we-we came into- we had a good first final session. We had like a 62%, and we were leading after day one. So we've got like almost a two board lead at this point.

John: Right.

Phil: And, um, and, uh, I'm just- I'm just like I'm at the clock ticking at this point, right? It's like- and-and we-we started off with a great board against staff herself. It was lucky, but it was great.

John: Mm.

Phil: Um, we basically bid a slam off of the queen. Eight card fit, missing the queen of trumps, and an ace.

John: Mm.

Phil: And, um, it-it rolls.

John: Mm-hmm.

Phil: So, we get the cup-- we started off with like 100% board, and-

John: This is the first session of the-the evening or the-the--

Phil: sec-second.

John: Excuse me, the second-seconds, yeah.

Phil: Yeah. Yeah, the [crosstalk].

John: So, it is the last session?

Phil: Yeah, so--

John: And you- and you had a big lead already.

Phil: We had a big lead already. So, now it's like-- now we're two and a half boards up, right? And I'm just like, Oh my God. I mean, this is like the only way we're going to lose is if- is if we just choke our- choke our guts, you know?

John: Mm-hmm.

Phil: So, um, we just sort of stayed in the board, um, played-played well. You know, we're-we're making a few mistakes, but our opponents are making more and we come down- we come down like the last two rounds.

John: Mm-hmm.

Phil: And, um, do you know, um, uh, Mitch Towner and, uh, John Ramos?

John: Yeah. Yeah.

Phil: Yeah. So, we play against Mitch and John and, um, Andy [unintelligible 01:13:11] and four diamonds and it-it rules-

John: Mm-hmm.

Phil: -which- and we really can't beat it, so that, we--

John: Mm.

Phil: I know that's a bad board.

John: Yeah.

Phil: And then we have a-

John: Mm.

Phil: -the-- then we have a bad board against the sprungs.

John: Mm.

Phil: Um, and we're like, "Well, we're still like in the high 50s. So, we're still in pretty good shape." And on the la- the last board, um, I don't want to get too technical about our system, but I miss bid according to our system. I had an opportunity to right siding a contract instead of wrong siding a contract and I wrong side the contract. And we get like a- we finished with like a 17% board.

So, like that 60% on the barometer is now 54%. And I'm thinking, "I just chuck this away." You know, and, um, but when the sessions were combined, it was 56. And when I looked at the session totals, um, we were still ninth for the session, that's not bad. And every one that deals for the session wasn't anywhere near us. So, I-I knew that we won it and I knew that we won it by, uh, a pretty good margin. I think we-we won it by about a board and a half.

John: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm.

Phil: So-so, that's good.

John: So, you're getting something- you're getting Bridge basis. Like how are you getting the barometer scores?

Phil: It just shows on my screen.

John: After every round, it just shows what your match point percentage was?

Phil: Exactly. Exactly. And that is- and that- and that is- that is treacherous as a player.

John: Mm. Yeah, for sure.

Phil: You know, [crosstalk] I mean-- Well, I mean, if you're having a bad game it just puts you in a worse mood. And if you're having a great game,

it just puts you on pins and needles.

John: Mm-hmm.

Phil: Right? It's-- I-I-I mean, I-I reme- I remember when I used to play in like- when I first started playing like a Jimmy Cayne match, I would take-take like a piece of masking tape and put it over my screen just so, I couldn't see the- like the total-

John: Mm-hmm.

Phil: -'cause I don't want to know-

John: Mm.

Phil: -you know. 'Cause it-it just-- it's-it's nothing but a distraction.

John: Mm. Yeah. You should listen to the Kim- my episode with Kim Frasier.

Phil: I actually went out shopping, um, this afternoon and I listened to about the first half of it, and I thought it was fantastic. She-she's a really interesting person and, um, I-I-I want to get that book. I think I'm-

John: Mm.

Phil: -you know, I-I think she gives a lot of really good insights because, um, I mean, my-my personal feeling is that, you can be a good player, you can be a good player, you can have a good system, but if you don't have poise and you can't execute, it doesn't really matter.

John: Yeah. Yeah.

Phil: And I think for a lot of people out there, um, poise and ability to execute-

John: Mm.

Phil: -is their biggest, um, um, their biggest flaw.

John: Sure. Mm.

Phil: You know, and I- and I know that that's-that's been one of mine.

John: Yeah.

Phil: You know, 'cause, you know, 'cause Andy and I work- we work hard as a partnership, but like if you get dehydrated at a tournament or your blood sugar gets wha- out of whack, um, and I mean, you mentioned Philadelphia. I mean, I remember the first day of the, um-- I can't remember what that what event it was. Um, might've been the [unintelligible 01:16:02]. Philly-Philly was spring, right?

John: Summer.

Phil: Summer [crosstalk].

John: That was- it was spring, uh, the last time, but it was summer when we met.

Phil: You're right. You're right. Because we-- I played in the first day of the LMs and we had like-

John: Mm-mm.

Phil: -a 58% with like four rounds ago and I couldn't find water and I didn't have food and I just- I just-just went bananas.

John: Mm-hmm.

Phil: And, um, and we didn't- we didn't qualify.

John: Mm-hmm.

Phil: So, um, I mean, I-I honestly think that that's half the battle for playing Bridge well.

John: Mm.

Phil: It's just staying fresh and staying physically fit too. That's-- People really underestimate the importance of that.

John: You also gave me this bidding problem, white, white, Ace King fifth, Ace in one, Ace King queen, queen jack third. Do you-

Phil: Okay.

John: -open one club?

Phil: If you have a balanced hand out of range for one trump, it-it gets up with one club. So, this is one club opening for us. Um, so, I opened a new club, which is forcing. It-it doesn't show a good hand, but it's forcing. And it goes past, and Andy bids a heart, which means players are transferred to spades, but he- but he has to do it on a zero counter, right? Because one club's forcing, right? So, now, um, and this is against Bob Bart who's my teammate a lot, playing with, um, again in [unintelligible 01:17:15] but also-

John: This is in the premier pairs?

Phil: This is the premier pairs on- I think this is- this might be the first round of the final. I think-

John: Okay.

Phil: -I think- I think that's what it was. Um, so, Gary bids three hearts and I'm looking at this 23 pounder with five spades when my partner bids one heart showing four spades. So, I'm too good for four spades, so, I bid four hearts, which is the right

bid, but it kinda takes us off the reservation. Um, so, now Andy, he goes past. Now Andy bids six clubs. And I said, that's a-- you know, I'm looking at this going, this is a little surprising.

So, he must have the Ace- he must have club link with the- with the Ace King. Nothing makes even remote sense. So now, I know that we're a gym for 12 tricks. Okay? And I start thinking about his-his first points. So, if he's got the queen's stains, I'm gonna take five stays or-or six, three diamonds as nine and four clubs, which he presumably has, is 13. You know, but even if he doesn't have the queen of spades and still a reasonable, um, shot of, um, bringing spades home.

So, I thought about it for about three minutes and I bid seven. And he had the magical hand for me. He had queen fourth of spades and he had Ace King fourth clubs. So, um, seven or triple. But, my um, my first reaction actually, wasn't like, "Oh wow, this is really a great result." My first reaction was, "God, what are people gonna think about this?"

[laughter]

Because it looks like I've got a wire on the hand.

John: Mm-hmm.

Phil: You know, or-or I might have a wire on the hand, right?

John: Mm.

Phil: So, I mean-

John: Mm-hmm.

Phil: -I wasn't like- I was sort of like, "Oh God, this is- this feels kind of weird but--" And in place, no one else now understands your system. So, I'm sort of like, "Eh."

John: Mm.

Phil: But, fortunately, I haven't gotten any calls from-from Nick [unintelligible 01:19:12] or from the ACBL about this.

John: Yeah. They said that they were gonna like look at every hand played in the NAOBC online.

Phil: I hope they do.

John: Jeez, it sounds like an undertaking.

Phil: Um, well, I mean, hopefully, people are flagging hands, you know-

John: Mm.

Phil: -instead of just, you know-

John: Mm-hmm.

Phil: -going through-- My God. I-I can't even imagine how many hands that would be.

John: Mm-hmm.

Phil: But.

John: Mm. Yeah. It's a whole new world [unintelligible 01:19:42].

Phil: Yeah, computers and COVID, brave new world.

John: All right. Well, uh, thank you, uh, Phil, for your support. Um, you-you're one of the reasons that I continue to do the podcast. Um, and thank you for giving me this great list of potential questions and for uh, answering them all well.

Phil: Well, thank you for having me. Um, here's to continue success of this, uh, of the second podcast in the movie. And- but, most of all, I am looking forward to seeing you, um, at the next national, whenever that will actually be.

John: Indeed. We'll have to have a break bread or-or, uh, a beer. One of the two.

Phil: Look- I look forward to it.

John: All right. Thank you very much.

Phil: Thank you, John. Take care.

[01:30:41] [END OF AUDIO]