Episode 18: Best of Seasons one and two
Support Black-Owned Businesses
Bridge is one of my favorite subjects. I love hearing stories about how people got started, a great play or how they approach a hand. The Setting Trick podcast is the forum where I share conversations with world class bridge players and fellow lovers of the game. As the host and founder, it is my pleasure to share highlights from Seasons One and Two in our first ever Best of The Setting Trick.
Since we had our initial conversation with Bridgewinners co-founder Gavin Wolpert over two years ago, we are grateful to have spoken with 20 individuals over the course of 18 episodes. A portion of the audio from every conversation, save legendary Zia Mahmood’s discussion of a bidding problem, can be found in this Best of.
We started this process with our intern Michael Xu having transcripts created for each episode. Michael read through every transcript and made a list of suggestions for what content should make our highlight reel.
My goal was to include audio from each one of our guests. I chose not to include Zia’s discussion of a bidding problem to make this episode more accessible for less advanced and non-players alike. Playing with Zia is the subject of both Zach Grossack and Anam Tebha’s segments and he is mentioned by former partner’s Michael Rosenberg and Bob Hamman as well.
It has been a pleasure to be coached and encouraged by so many of our listeners. I can remember being in Scotland for a Double Dummy screening at Stirling University and going out for a drink afterwards. It made my day when one of the attendees told me he had listened to my conversation with Migry and enjoyed it.
My practice of how I am approaching interviews has been greatly influenced by listener Leonard Epstein whom I have never met. He stressed to me the importance of having an idea what I want to learn from the guest beforehand, sticking to it and making each guest the star. If you have suggestions, please pass them along!
If you gave up because an episode was “unlistenable” in the words of one friend, please give us another chance. I took Dave Caprera’s advice and have edited some of the clips from this episode to minimize my interruptions. We have also hired a sound engineer to optimize this audio.
It hit me as I was putting the segments into place what an accomplishment it is to have recorded and published these 18 conservations. I am giddy at the prospect of sharing it with bridge playing and non-bridge playing friends alike.
These stories go beyond bridge. Eight time world champion and three time player of the decade Jeff Meckstroth, after playing his first ever duplicate, his father said, “you were almost average, that’s really good!” Jeff thought, “that didn’t sound good to me at all!” (21:40)
Or the focus which Migry had when she was able to break up a squeeze at trick two on the last board of a disastrous quarter to help win an NEC Cup match. (46:10)
You are going to hear Meck talk about the danger of pulling a false card too early (32:50), Bob Hamman size up his partners for a match against Sam Lev and Mike Moss (9:58). Gavin Wolpert talking about how September 11th influenced him to choose his passion for bridge over university (5:55). Nabil Edgtton, briefly, on what it’s like to play in the Bermuda Bowl (1:13:05) and Michael Rosenberg, even more briefly on his record playing the Bermuda Bowl with Zia (1:12:45).
One of my favorite arrangements in the entire show was having Steve Weinstein gush about playing with Bobby Levin and Paul Soloway (48:45) (57:40) intermixed between Dave Caprera talking about playing with his wife of 44 years Anne Brenner (51:15). For my own personal safety I made sure to include from the head of the US Junior Program Michael Rosenberg how Dave is the best mentor (1:17:00). Dave, don’t forget this!
Kare Gjaldbaek talks about the day he improved the most as a bridge player (40:20) and Adam Wildavsky elaborates on what he calls the Keller convention (42:00). From Adam’s system notes: bit.ly/adamw-notes
Keller
We don’t discuss hands at the table.
No apologies.
No comments when dummy goes down.
Finally, here’s Walt Schafer’s scorecard in what Bart Bramley described as “a hand for Edgar.” On board 26, playing with Edgar Kaplan, Geir Hegelmo made six diamonds on a double intra finesse in Kaplan’s last ever major win.
If you don’t like this episode, then there’s not much hope for you as a listener to the podcast. This is the best we’ve got. We hope to set a standard with this Best of, that will be carried over to future TST interviews, including improved practices for recording audio going forward.
Please enjoy!
John McAllister: Hi, my name is John McAllister, and I'm the host of The Setting Trick Podcast. I am excited to share with you today our first-ever best of the setting trick. We completed this episode just as the outrage over George Floyd's death was coming to the surface. As an American, I am frustrated by the continued violence towards our black communities. Where I once thought it was ridiculous for me to say that Black Lives Matter, I realize that my own passivity and lack of action is an implied acceptance of the status quo. I was recently having dinner on a local restaurant's patio when I saw a young black man walking down the street. Without thinking I profiled him as being dangerous and bad. As much as I want to blame external forces for our current condition, I have been schooled to look within. Was it really true that this young man was a threat to me? As much as I want you to enjoy this celebration of our podcast, I also encourage you to look inside yourself and see the ways in which each of us are creating our current reality.
[music] After that introduction, I don’t know if I can still say that this Best Of is a showcase of our guests and their stories. I do still hope that bridge lovers will be able to share this episode with their non-bridge playing friends. One of the things that uh when we were recording Double Dummy and one of the things that I love about that movie is, like I don't think non-bridge players really appreciate the intensity that bridge players have about like wanting to get the-- wanting to make the right play, wanting to get the right result and like how much we care, like this is just bridge. I've-I've played, uh, I've played lots of sports. My-my life growing up, I wanted to be a-a professional athlete. And I th- I think what-- like what I wanna get-- One of the things I wanna get across to-to-to the non-bridge playing public is like that this is serious. This is intense. Like, we are going hard at it. And like when you get a bad result, you make a bad play, like, it stings, and when you make a good play, it's sweet. To start out, let's listen to Gavin Wolpert talking about making a great play at the World Championships.
Gavin Wolpert: You know, uh-uh, it's funny, uh-uh, I'm not-- Uh-uh-uh-uh, I wouldn't characterize myself as a dynamic. You know, I'm not making-making amazing plays on any given hand. I mean every so often, I'll-I'll-I'll, uh, on defense do something that's tricky. You know, like, I'll just-- [chuckling] You know, like, I'll-I'll-- Now, when I say tricky, I don't mean, like-like, uh, reckless. Uh-uh-uh, you know, just every so often if you can catch the hand before-- Like if you can figure out the hand before a declarer knows you've figured out the hand, you can do very creative things to-to-to disguise the situation for declarer.
John McAllister: Right.
Gavin Wolpert: And-and-and-and-and, uh-uh, you know, every so often I'll do something that-that I would never have seen or expected bef-- when I picked up the hand or as the play was going, but then I'll-I'll see it in-in-in-in tempo because I'm staying with the hand. [laughter] And-and, uh, I-I can remember, like-- uh, uh, it's funny how a few hands stick out the-- When I'm thinking of-of amazing-amazing hands, like, uh, there was a hand I defended with Vince, uh, in the world championships in 2003, but it was some part-score. It was like, uh, where, um, at trick one, uh, Vince led a card and-and dummy came with-with-- It was in a size three. It was like-- It's called three diamonds was the contractor and-and Vince led a spade and dummy came with ace-queen, Jack fifth, and I had King and one offside. And-and it was something like that where-where I-- where I-I-I was able to duck at trick one.
John McAllister: Oh, wow.
Gavin Wolpert: Uh, but, like, uh, declarer played really fast at trick one. [laughter] But I was re-- like I-I was ready for it. [laughter] I-I'd-- And-and-and-and that one little play was like made-made-- like, declarer then went to draw trumps thinking that their s- their side suit was gonna just be set up and-and because they drew trumps, we now had seven winners on the outside. [laughter] It was, like, the difference, where if I won the card, they were gonna make an overtrick, but if I ducked it-- When I ducked it, they now felt safe drawing trumps opening themselves up in the side suits and-and-and going three down. So, it's like a four-trick swing and-- Yeah.
John McAllister: So, what is like-- What is your reaction? How do you--
Gavin Wolpert: I-I was shaking. I remember shaking when it happened. [laughter] Like I- like I-I-I-I would, uh-- But I was-- Yeah. I-I was, uh, uh, not shaking as I ducked but like after-
John McAllister: Yeah.
Gavin Wolpert: -the hand. I remember like-like-
John McAllister: Yeah, yeah.
Gavin Wolpert: -my-- the adrenaline from making that play. And it was- and-and it was actually kind of ironic that it was just like a not vulnerable part-score. You know, it was-- it-it wasn't like, you know, my-- the world was on the line for this hand or whatever but, uh-- Yeah.
[laughter]
John McAllister: Gavin was our very first guest on the show. And I'm so grateful to him for having taken the leap with me, and also to his website bridge winners for allowing us to feature The Setting Trick on his pages. This next story from Gavin, I think is particularly relevant in this time of-of great upheaval.
Gavin Wolpert: I-I went into it. So, I-I-I'd played a little bit of pro through high school. And, uh, when college-- When I went to-- Uh, I went to university, the University of Toronto and I was- I was playing a decent amount of pro, but I-- uh-uh, the world, everybody was telling me, "Don't become a bridge bum, don't become a bridge bum." That was the standard words at every table of every tournament or club game I ever played in Toronto. They were- they were- they were pretty, uh, on my case about it and-- But I-I-I-I was doing pretty well with getting little bits of work when I was younger, and I-I-I loved it- I loved- I loved the game, I loved everything about it. But I was also going to school and doing a pretty bad job at school and not doing as well at bridge as I would like to have that-that-that as-as I wanted to. So, uh, what actually happened to me was on September 11th, uh, was my first day of, uh, second-year at university, and I went to class and I-- when I got to lobby, I started watching the TV, saw what was going on in New York and in Washington. And, um, my-my first reaction was like, "Wow, this could happen here." I-I got a little bit scared, and-and I started, you know, thinking of maybe I shouldn't be downtown, I wanna go home. Uh, and I-I-I also had this moment where I was thinking, "Wow, all these people are- were on airplanes and, you know, their lives just came to an end so abruptly, well, you know, in the- in the World Trade Center or whatever." And I started thinking to myself that day I was like, uh, you know, "What am I doing here? Life is- life can be so short. I'm-I'm-I'm not enjoying university." I was studying economics, and it was just the most boring thing that I could ever have imagined. Uh, and I-- So I-I literally walked out that day, never went to another class and just decided on September 11th that I was just gonna forget school and-and go at bridge. I-I-I wasn't sure bridge would be successful. I-I-I didn't know, you know, like if that it would turn into the-the type of career that I have now. It certainly wasn't as big then. So that I-I-I don't know what I was thinking really, but-but I-I-I knew that I could al-always come back. I-I didn't-- Uh, whatever education I was gonna get at university was not gonna lead me to a job that I wanted in my life, like a-a-at least not what I was studying then. So e-either way whether I-- if-if I tried bridge and didn't-- it didn't turn-- didn't pan out, I still felt like I was gonna be in a better place than had I graduated with some degree that I would never use that would push me towards a job that I would never like.
John McAllister: There's a lot more people that are more qualified than I am to say who the greatest bridge player of all time is. But our second guest, Bob Hamman, is certainly in the conversation. Here's Bob's longtime colleague and fellow Hall of Famer, Bart Bramley, to introduce Bob.
Bart Bramley: Bob is incomparable. His analytical skills are second to none, and his compartmentalization is also second to none. Now, he-he is the-the best ever at putting his results behind him.
John McAllister: Mm-hmm.
Bart Bramley: Uh, so it's when that board is played, it's over. We can't do anything about that one. Let's worry about this one.
Bob Hamman: My mindset is to solve the set of problems or the problem that I'm working on now.
John McAllister: Mm-hmm.
Bob Hamman: And to look at the elements that might assist me rather than what am I gonna have for dinner tonight?
John McAllister: Right.
Bob Hamman: Because as soon as I start considering, um, that juicy steak, I might let 3N make
John McAllister: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I did that.
Bob Hamman: And then-then I'll be losing my appetite for the steak.
[laughter]
Bob Hamman: It won't even taste this good. Now, of course, if Mike Moss is buying that changes the equation.
John McAllister: [laughs] You anticipated one of my questions. [laughs] One of the questions that I came up with in the- in the last week as I've been thinking about getting to speak to you is, let's say you've got a-a match against Lev and Mike Moss, they're your opponents. And I don't know what the stakes are, but let's just say they're-- But let's just say you're playing for bla-- for bragging rights, okay?
Bob Hamman: Right.
John McAllister: Who are- who are you choosing to be your partner in this match? [laughs]
Bob Hamman: Well, I would choose Lev, uh.
John McAllister: No-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no, you misunderstood the question. You're playing against Lev and Mike Moss. They're-
Bob Hamman: Oh, one playing ag-against Lev Mike Moss.
John McAllister: Yeah. They're your opponents, they're your opponents.
Bob Hamman: I would not have much in the way of mixed emotions as to-
John McAllister: [chuckles]
Bob Hamman: -should I take a dive for these four g-guys?
John McAllister: [chuckles] But who are you choosing? I mean, who are you choosing as your partner to make sure that you, in fact, win the match? Let's say it's a deathmatch, like the-the losing side--
Bob Hamman: Another-another Bo- another Bob Hamman.
John McAllister: [laughs]
Bob Hamman: But that's-that's flip from Johnny Crawford's line, so.
John McAllister: [laughs]
Bob Hamman: Who would- who would I pick?
John McAllister: [laugh]
Bob Hamman: Well, right now, I guess I'd pick Berkowitz 'cause he's the only guy left who will play with me.
John McAllister: [laughs]
Bob Hamman: McAllister would be a close second.
John McAllister: [laughs]
Bob Hamman: And we c- we could also drag [unintelligible 00:10:49] up out of the, uh--
John McAllister: [laughs] From the tomb? [laughs].
Bob Hamman: I mean, there would be other things that he can think about. You might pick some sexy girl on the grounds that she would console me if we lost.
John McAllister: [laughs]
Bob Hamman: But I don't think that's likely. So, I guess I'd have to go for the Bridge outcome. [laughter] So what-- so who would I pick as a partner in this fray?
John McAllister: [laughs]
Bob Hamman: I mean, the partner that, you know, adds a Berkowitz was just beginning to, uh, plow some ground with. The last significant success I had, uh, was playing with Martell in the old-folks tournament in Font.
John McAllister: [laughs]
Bob Hamman: So that might not be a bad choice, um.
John McAllister: [coughs]
Bob Hamman: I mean, see at-at least if I lost, we could take it out on each other in back diamond.
John McAllister: [laughs]
Bob Hamman: I mean, I might go for Justin.
John McAllister: [laughs]
Bob Hamman: Because he- his supreme talent-
John McAllister: [laughs]
Bob Hamman: -and probably a good deal more energy than any other fossils.
John McAllister: [laughs]
Bob Hamman: Um, you know, there-- you know, have-- With some kind of, but assuming no preparation at all-
John McAllister: Yeah.
Bob Hamman: - that we couldn't discuss system. We could do nothing except sit down and play.
John McAllister: Okay.
Bob Hamman: Um, I-I would, um, pick somebody who's relentless and tough. I might go with Meckstroth.
John McAllister: Mm-hmm.
Bob Hamman: He's- he's just one tough cat.
John McAllister: Yeah.
Bob Hamman: Who's properly oriented in the winning philosophy.
John McAllister: Yeah.
Bob Hamman: Yup. But you-you know, Hamson would be a good choice. Uh, we could- we could branch out to Eric Greco. I've suspected Greco has been carrying Hason some three years and never getting the credit.
John McAllister: [laughs] Ooh.
[Bob Hamman: Um, we could- we could go with one of the young Turks, um, I don't know how, but how these kids play, and not knowing-- A-at least, you know what you're getting if you're playing with say, Meckstroth.
John McAllister: Yeah.
Bob Hamman: I mean, him- you-you know, that there's a certain baseline that he's not going to fail you on.
John McAllister: Yeah.
Bob Hamman: And also, he's not going to drift into some esoteric tho-thought pattern-
John McAllister: [chuckles]
Bob Hamman: and so how you had to have X, Y, and Z when they're only 11 people on the planet, him being one of them, he thinks that way.
John McAllister: [laughs] Ooh.
Bob Hamman: So, you-you-you think of that type of a-a player that you would opt for.
John McAllister: Yeah.
Bob Hamman: Frankly, I-I- against that particular pair, a guy f- any guy from central casting would probably be good-
John McAllister: [laughs]
Bob Hamman: -enough so as to not let the game get away. Yeah, I could cop the line from, uh, David Carter when he would get into a discussion with somebody at the bar at a convention. Uh, Carter and Nail had quite a gig, and then they'd go to conventions. In one week, they'd be a banker, the next week they'd be an actuary, occasionally they'd be a doctor, a lawyer or whatever, and they always found a poker game, occasionally a bridge game.
John McAllister: Yeah.
Bob Hamman: And Carter would sit in the bar, and he'd be talking to some guy and some of the discussion is get around the bridge. That's no longer likely to happen in today's environment.
John McAllister: Right.
Bob Hamman: And Carter and opine that they- he'd find a way to make the discussion a little heated and, um, Carter would opine he'd take the Bellboy and bid him, and outside to be Nail in a Bellboy's uniform.
[laughter]
John McAllister: This is the- this is the guy who's the-the namesake for the Nail life master pairs.
Bob Hamman: Um, so that-that's named [unintelligible 00:15:11] G. Robert Nail.
John McAllister: [laughs] The bellman? [laughs]
Bob Hamman: Uh, uh, Nail-Nail's not the funniest guys ever.
John McAllister: [laughs]
Bob Hamman: He at one point, we're playing against Nail and Jacoby. I was playing with the Crouse in the trials and-
John McAllister: [chuckles]
Bob Hamman: -they had won the previous year, but things were going very badly for them this year, and we were leading the event. It's about around 9 or 10, a pairs' trials. And, um, [clears throat] we were playing in one of these, uh, a room consisting of aluminum mirages and curtains hangover and people would come in and hand us the boards et cetera, and we'd play. So, um, at one point after a significant disaster, Nail who was about 5'8", no, 4'8".
John McAllister: [chuckles]
Bob Hamman: He-he had stacked a bunch of chairs up. You know, the stackable chairs, with a comment of, "Maybe this will make it hard for the fat boy to see my hand."
John McAllister: [laughs]
Bob Hamman: So, after a number of hands, maybe the fat boy wasn't having all much- that much trouble seeing his hand, but because they weren't getting very good results. So, Jacoby who was a fairly sizable individual, Nail gets up off his stack of chairs and says, "James, I need to talk to you." And Jacoby sort of like Martin Jeffrey follows him out.
John McAllister: [chuckles]
Bob Hamman: And Nail looks up at him and says, "Are you betting on these boys?" And Jacoby [laughs] now gets very defensive and says, "Well, Bobby, I would, you know, I may be playing badly-
John McAllister: [laughs]
Bob Hamman: - but there is a limit."
John McAllister: [laughs]
Bob Hamman: Nail said, "Relax. If there was, I just- if you were, I just want to have the accent."
John McAllister: [laughs] All right. So maybe what I said in the intro about being, this being a podcast for non-bridge players, doesn't hold on that pressure co-conversation. There was a lot of specific bridge players mentioned. One of whom is Jeff Meckstroth. Here's Jeff talking about the beginnings of his legendary partnership with Eric Rodwell.
Jeff Meckstroth: I met Eric in the summer of 1974. I was 18 and he was 17. Uh, my father had always stressed to me that Bridge was a partnership game. And for the last couple of years, I had a car when I was 16. So, I started going to tournaments on my own. I was always looking for someone that could be my potential bridge partner. And the day I met Eric, I snapped my hands together and said that he's the guy. I could see in the talent. Uh, he-- we teammates on a Swiss team. Jacobs got us together. And he had a hand, he had a bite squeeze to make one notrump while I had never ever had of a bite squeeze before.
John McAllister: [laughs]
Jeff Meckstroth: So, I thought this guy is really brilliant, you know.
John McAllister: [laughs]
Jeff Meckstroth: If we can put it together with him. Uh, Eric didn't have a car at the time and, uh--
John McAllister: [laugh]
Jeff Meckstroth: So, it was actually, it was like six months later before we actually played, which was January of 1975. We played in two-session in qualifying and final open pair in Indianapolis. And we won the open pair the first time we played. That was the first tournament victory in any time that Eric had ever had. Um, and in his eyes, I was the- I was the big king of the Bridge, uh, you know, which I was helpless. [laughter] I went back to just see how-- just how bad I was and awful-
John McAllister: [laughs]
Jeff Meckstroth: -back then, you know. I was a wild bidder.
John McAllister: [laugh]
Jeff Meckstroth: And then, uh, you know. I had some talent, you know, card player's talent. Because I was such a crazy bidder, I got myself in all sorts of awful contracts.
John McAllister: [laughs]
Jeff Meckstroth: So, I had to learn the take tricks really quicks if that was gonna survive.
John McAllister: And I couldn't leave out Jeff talking about how he got started in Bridge.
Jeff Meckstroth: I used to hu-hustle John and Euchre at the golf course, you know, make a few extra bucks [laughs] because, I mean, there I saw, boy, they were soft games there, you know, it wasn't anything. So, I mean, I always gambled on golf and, um, you know, we'd play cards after the rounds, you know. So, uh, but so back to the card game, yeah, I grew up playing cards. W-when my brother wanted to learn, my dad gave us a book, told us to read the book. And I read about 12 chapters of Arnest Ramires Contact Bridge Complete, and I have, "Wow." I learned about things like finessing. I thought, "This is really cool. [laughter] And so I went down and kibitzed my dad for two consecutive Mondays, him playing with his regular partner. And I thought, "Wow, that's really cool how they plan the tricks from these side of things. So, after two weeks, I said to my dad, I'm ready to go, I'm ready to play.
John McAllister: [laughs]
Jeff Meckstroth: He had taught us a couple of things like staying on, you know, in five-card majors whatnot. And so, my brother and I went down to play the next Monday night. And we were almost average.
John McAllister: Wow.
Jeff Meckstroth: And my dad was like, that's remarkable. That's really good. I can't believe you're like almost average. And I thought, "But so that doesn't sound good to me at all."
[laughter]
Jeff Meckstroth: And, you know, I'm almost average. Well, but my dad kept saying, "No, that's really good." And so, we went back the next week and I saw what my dad was talking about the second week. We-we were not-- we were next to bottom. We were almost but I thought, "Well, yeah, maybe almost average isn't so bad."
John McAllister: [laughs]
Jeff Meckstroth: And we went back the third week and it was a club tournament. And my brother and I won the club tournament.
John McAllister: Oh my God.
Jeff Meckstroth: Yeah. How is this possible? Well, my brother doubled 12 contracts out of me.
John McAllister: [laughs]
Jeff Meckstroth: And they all went down. [laughter] That's how we won. The bidding wo- the bidding would be over, come around to my brother and he'd look to his left-
John McAllister: [laughs]
Jeff Meckstroth: It's all right, shrugged his shoulders and said, "Double."
[laughter]
John McAllister: One of my favorite ways to play bridge is for money in what we call rubber bridge. Here's another superstar, Geoff Hampson talking about the importance of river bridge in his learning.
Geoff Hampson: First, I, I, I made the mistake of taking classes that I thought would lead me to a lucrative career rather than classes that I found interesting.
John McAllister: Mm-hmm.
Geoff Hampson: My classes were not of much interest.
John McAllister: Mm.
Geoff Hampson: And I was already badly bitten by the bridge bug.
John McAllister: Mm.
Geoff Hampson: So, in my second year of university, my parents thought, well, he's just not going to class. Let's get him to a Toro- a university in Toronto. So, I went to York University. Not far from my home where I could commute.
John McAllister: Mm, mm-hmm.
Geoff Hampson: But typically, every morning I'd hop in the car and drive to the Bridge Club and play rubber bridge all day and then come home.
John McAllister: [laughs]
Geoff Hampson: So that didn't work a lot better. And they were like, "Okay, we-we're done paying for you to go play bridge. You can just go play bridge and not waste any more tuition."
John McAllister: [laughs] Uh, so what-what kind of stake were you playing, uh, at that time?
Geoff Hampson: So, in Toronto, there was really only one club that had a money game. And the money games that-- like the smallest money game was a penny game. So, and that's, I didn't wanna play any bigger than that. I had $0.
John McAllister: [laughs]
Geoff Hampson: So, I would go and play in the penny game with-- there was a lovely old lady named Marjorie who would come in every night and she would come in with her dog and play penny bridge. And, um, she would, you know, lose every day. And so, I would go and play in Marjorie's game-
John McAllister: [laughs]
Geoff Hampson: -and a couple- a couple of other 80-year-olds and I'd win like, you know, 25 bucks a night. And I would think, well, this is like Christmas.
John McAllister: Uh.
Geoff Hampson: And then after doing that for, I don't know, several months, there were some other guys in the 2 cent game and the 5 cent game and the 10 cent game. And one of them was this guy, Franco Bendoni. Franco was uh, an Italian immigrant huge guy. He must've been 250, 300 pounds, mostly muscle, and actually a real pussy cat of a guy, but imposing figure. And Franco came over-
John McAllister: Yeah.
Geoff Hampson: -one night as I was trying to cut into Marjorie's game. And Franco said, "No, you don't play with Marjorie anymore." And I said, "What, no, it's a great game for me. I can win in this game every time." He says, "It will be very bad for you if you keep playing in Marjorie's game."
John McAllister: One of the questions that I asked myself as I was selecting the clips for this Best of Episode is who am I making this for? And in a lot of ways, I'm making this for myself. And so, one of the- one of the things that Jeff Meckstroth's dad impressed upon him is, is finding a partner. And a great way to find a partner is by playing well.
Geoff Hampson: Yeah, I-I had a- I was- I had a King Jack third opposite is eight, nine, eight situation. And through the say, um, well, through the-the playing of my m- main tricks, I came down to a position where it was certain that the queen was not onside. And it was also certain that the queen offside was not dropping.
John McAllister: [laughs]
Geoff Hampson: So ultimately, I-I ran the Jack and picked up the 10 third queen fourth. Uh, and, uh, that was a telling moment for John. We had been, you know, we had become buddies and he was playing with me actually out of the kindness of his heart ‘cause I was an untested.
John McAllister: [laughs]
Geoff Hampson: As he calls me, I was an untested young pup. I'm still the pup in his eyes, 50, 51-year-old pup.
John McAllister: [laughs]
Geoff Hampson: And, uh, yeah, at that point he thought, you know, this guy- this guy's gonna do things. And, uh, I actually was then, uh, allowed to substitute for John's regular partner on his Canadian team. 'Cause his regular partner had a conflict for a Canadian qualifying event. And so, we qualified easily. And then when they-- you know, I-I had said I'll drop off. Yeah, you guys, you know, I'll play and you can continue without me.
John McAllister: Yeah.
Geoff Hampson: Uh, but John said, no, we can't-- we're not gonna do that. John's not wired that way.
John McAllister: [laughs]
Geoff Hampson: So, he said, “No, no, Jeff's now my partner. And we're gonna find somebody else for you to play with.”
John McAllister: I love how Geoff says that John Gowdy just wasn't wired that way. John is one of the listeners that I've gotten a chance to meet who's encouraged me, um, from making this show. And another is Phil Clayton who suggested that I speak to Bart Bramley talking about getting to play with great players. The reason I wanted to share this clip from Bart, with you is because, just his excitement because he's getting to play with Sidney Lazard.
Bart Bramley: Sidney is one of the greatest players of all time. Sidney told me that's during the-the late 50s, he thought he was the best player in the world. So, John Sullivan had the idea of finding a partner for Sidney. And his idea was me. Um, so he called me up 'cause we were friends and suggested it to me. And I was ecstatic at the idea 'cause I knew Sydney was, uh, the guy that had played that six diamond hand from this, you know, the mid-sixties already.
John McAllister: Mm.
Bart Bramley: You know, already, it's a very famous hand. You've probably read about it.
John McAllister: I don't know. No, I don't know it, I don't know it.
Bart Bramley: Basically, after passing for the first couple of rounds, he jumps to six diamonds out of four cards to.
John McAllister: Wow.
Bart Bramley: And prop six cards support in the dummy and then made it on a non-simultaneous, double squeeze.
John McAllister: Huh.
Bart Bramley: [laughs] Yeah, this is one of the-the greatest one-man tours-tour, the force.
John McAllister: Mm.
Bart Bramley: Tour the force. It's-it's-
John McAllister: Mm-hmm.
Bart Bramley: -it's one of the most spectacular solo hands of all time. Well, it's my pick for the most spectacular.
John McAllister: Mm.
Bart Bramley: So, I-I learned about this hand 50 years ago and I was- I was ecstatic to be playing with the man who had done that.
John McAllister: Wow.
Bart Bramley: Sidney and I played on Edgar-Edgar Kaplan's teams for the rest of his life. And, uh, he-he died in the fall of '97. That was the fall of '95. And, uh, I was one of Edgar's teammates uh, when he won his last event in the spring of '97. For some reason, which I can't recall right now, Sidney had a commitment to-to do something else. This was on the two days Swiss at the, uh, the end of the spring nationals. Again, it's one of my best events. Um, and I was flying with my friend, Walt Schafer, in that event. And we had Kaplan K and we had, uh, Geir Helgemo and Brian Glubok. Okay. So, oh, I'm-I'm digressing from the Sidney stories here, but this-this is one worth telling. So, we qualified easily enough. And, and the second day, uh, you know, Hulgemore and-and Gluebuck weren't running too well. So, and Hulgemore had to go home after the first session of the finals. So, so Ian Gluebuck played a couple of matches, and-and Walter, and I think sat out a match. And when it came time to the fourth match, uh, Hulgemore put in a special request to play a match with Andrew. 'Cause he knew Andrew was sick.
John McAllister: Yeah.
Bart Bramley: Yeah. And so, requests granted, and during that match, Hulgemore had his most famous hand that he's ever played, his six diamond hand where made six diamonds and a super intro finesse in a suit in which he had, uh, let me get it straight-
John McAllister: Is this against Ralph Katz?
Bart Bramley: Yes, where he had, uh, ace-king, six fours opposite nine, seven third and he led low to the seven and picked up lefties eight and one by taking repeated finesses against righty that was Ralph. And the lefty wasn't too shabby either. That was Richard Pavlicek's. At my table, Kitt Woolsey missed that play, that hand occurred in-in the seven boards that he played with Edgar, the most famous Hulgemore hand.
John McAllister: Wow.
Bart Bramley: And his hand was-
John McAllister: I never knew-
Bart Bramley: -legendary-
John McAllister: -that. I never knew that Edgar was his partner then.
Bart Bramley: Right. Right. So, by the time the-the dinner break was over, his hand was already legendary.
John McAllister: Wow.
Bart Bramley: Yeah. Uh, and, uh, during the break, I-I christened this hand, a gift for Edgar ‘cause it truly was.
John McAllister: Yeah.
Bart Bramley: And then-
John McAllister: Wow.
Bart Bramley: -uh, Walt Schafer, and I just played the whole evening session with Norman and Edgar. We won all the matches and we won the event.
John McAllister: Oh, man.
Bart Bramley: So-so that was the last win for both Kaplan and Kay.
John McAllister: Edgar Kaplan was a legendary figure in the bridge world. Our next guest, James Holzhauer is already one of the greatest Jeopardy players of all time. He also aspires to be a world-class bridge player. Here's Jeff Meckstroth to introduce him.
Jeff Meckstroth: Josh Donn, uh, is-- knows James well. They're-- they both have four-year-old daughters who are friends, I think.
John McAllister: Hmm. Yeah.
Jeff Meckstroth: So, Josh managed a game in San Francisco for James and he asked Zia and I to participant. We both did. Uh, I got knocked around pretty good in that game. [laughter] And then they were beating up on me from all sides.
John McAllister: [chuckles]
Jeff Meckstroth: One hand, in particular, I remember I finally got a hand. I thought, "All right, I had like seven solid hearts, the ace of spades, the ace something of diamonds and queen of clubs, so I opened two clubs and the bidding goes two spades on my left, three clubs by Zia, my partner. Five spades by the James on my right.
John McAllister: [chuckles]
Jeff Meckstroth: So, this is very annoying, to begin with. [laughter] You know, ri-right in my face five spades.
John McAllister: [chuckles]
Jeff Meckstroth: So, I'm vul against not so I thought, "Well, I've just bid six hearts, surely they'll take a sacrifice and whatever. So, I bid six hearts and three quick passes.
John McAllister: [chuckles]
Jeff Meckstroth: And the ace of clubs is what I had a queen and a club and dummy as jack and I'm six. Oh, no. So I had the queen of club. I think I have a discard in the dummy. I have a queen of clubs out, to false card desperately because the ace of clubs love King. So now I thought I can't play the queen now I had to put it back in my hand.
John McAllister: [laugh]
Jeff Meckstroth: What a tell. They-they were all laughing at me at that point.
[laughter]
Jeff Meckstroth: I-I appreciate the humor on that. That's the most remarkable hand I can remember playing [unintelligible 00:33:24]
John McAllister: [laugh]
Jeff Meckstroth: He-he's extremely talented player very gifted, you know.
John McAllister: Yeah.
Jeff Meckstroth: He's got a lot of sharp card players he was making.
John McAllister: Hmm.
Jeff Meckstroth: You know, I was impressed.
John McAllister: Now, here's James.
James Holzhauer: You know, I-I really taught myself the game when I was I want to say 14 or 15 just kind of on a lark, you know, I was bored and, uh, decided this is a-a game that's I know to any kind of intellectuals from all over the place. And you know, I thought it might be fun. So I did-- I-I would not say I learned to play the game even decently for another at least 10 years beyond that, but, yeah, that was-- the-the first start I got was just as a teenager.
John McAllister: And-and-and you said you learned to play as a 14-year-old? What, uh, what, how did you get exposed- how did you get exposed to bridge?
James Holzhauer: Um, so, you know, I would play a little bit, on I think was Yahoo back in the day who used to host these games. They were not of a high caliber, shall we say. Um, but you know, it was- it was enough to get me interested and so I-I bought, uh, Watson's book on The Play of the Hand I think Gordon's Bridge Complete I believe those were my first two, uh, things that I really kind of developed an interest in bridge books that to this day, I probably have a couple hundred on my shelf the wife constantly complains. We don't need more of them but, you know, they're- there's something I find interesting.
John McAllister: My conversation with James took place in September, just two months after the North American bridge championships were held in his hometown of Las Vegas.
James Holzhauer: Well, in a way there was very fortuitous timing because this aired right before they had the NABC in Las Vegas right here. And you know, normally if I go to an NABC it'll only be for a few days. Uh, you know, 'cause I gotta get back home, send everything here but since this one was in town, I was able to attend almost every day of its meets, uh, a lot of the big personalities. You know, I probably at least half of bridge players are Jeopardy fans so it was funny I'm going out there and Jeff Meckstroth is walking up to me to introduce himself. [chuckles] You know it was amazing. So, he and I, are corresponding a little bit via email now is giving me some advice to get me started which is, you know, amazing of him. Um, yeah, I've, uh, worked up some personal contacts through a lot of the pros here in town, uh, Fred Gitelman has been really nice, Josh Donn. Uh, yeah, I got together to play with them. Bobby Leven too. Uh, I got to play with Bobby's stepson Shane Blanchard at the Nationals we put up a great score in one of the open events you know. I-- so I would say that, for the most part, I was treading water at the NABC events this July but you know, to-to do that an open field at a national is just an amazing feeling for me. Uh, I know I have a lot of room to grow, but you know now I have people who are going to help me get there so it's kind of incredible.
John McAllister: With so many great players taking an interest in James's bridge. I look forward to seeing if the statement he made in the bridge bulletin about becoming a world-class player will become true.
James Holzhauer: Yeah, I, uh, you know, I really, it's ambitious I know but I think that it's a level I could get to if I really put my head into it and I one-one thing about me is I never half-ass anything. So, you know, if I- if I decide to go this route, it will be, you know, with-with-
John McAllister: Hmm.
James Holzhauer: -the intent of getting to that top-level at some point.
John McAllister: Our next guest is sociologist and bridge player, Dr. Samantha Punch. Sam is a mainstay on the Scottish women's team was just last year qualified for the Venice Cup for the very first time. Sam is also undertaking the academic study of the sociology of bridge at Stirling University. And you started playing bridge when you were finishing your PhD?
Samantha Punch: When I finished it. Yeah, it was the-the thing that I did to fill the gap of the PhD. Yeah, I'd-I'd come across mini bridge earlier one time when I was traveling in Latin America, um, I played mini bridge in Brazil quite randomly, and I just kind of made a note that one day, yeah, I want to learn the proper bridge. But that was when I was about 20. But I didn't actually get around to it till I was nearly 30. Um, but I think that's- that- that's something that stuck with me is that you can sow a seed a potential new player and it doesn't matter that they don't run with it straight away. If you've sown that seed and you've attracted them to the game, they might always return at any point. So it never worries me when we're trying to attract new players, um, that people dip in and out a bit because I'm often convinced that once they've tasted it, they will come back at some point in their lives.
John McAllister: Sam also shares James's love for bridge books. Here she is talking about her favorite bridge book, Bob Hamman, At the Table.
Samantha Punch: I was just at Bridge Congress, which is like one of your regionals and in Scotland years ago, and someone recommended it to me because I was asking everyone. And I was, I-I-I went through a phase of asking a lot of questions, to a lot of people about bridge and one of them was what your favorite bridge book to read was because I was on a mission to read a book every two weeks.
John McAllister: Wow.
Samantha Punch: Uh, and, um, yeah, someone suggested it and they were right, it's definitely the best book, I think.
John McAllister: Wow.
Samantha Punch: Because for me- for me as a sociologist it goes into the nontechnical aspects of the game about how you manage yourself and your partner and emotions, and stuff like that and how you develop resilience and be mentally tough.
John McAllister: I- you know, I noticed you did have a, you do have a lot of bridge books at your house but to read bridge books, like, a bridge book in two weeks, that's like-- bridge books it can be kind of a slog, I think like they're, like, they're thick and dense. Um, so that's an impressive, uh, that's an impressive-- Can you give me some more-
Samantha Punch: I read some thin ones as well. [chuckles]
John McAllister: Yeah.
Samantha Punch: They weren't all thick. [chuckles] Yeah- [crosstalk]
John McAllister: Dd you read At the Table in two weeks?
Bart Bramley: Oh, I think I read that in a couple of days. I couldn't put it down.
John McAllister: Wow. Wow.
Samantha Punch: Um, but this was when I was learning and I was really, really hungry to learn. So I had- I made it my new year's resolution was to do that. And by the end of the year, I've done it.
John McAllister: I like Sam's idea of reading a bridge book every two weeks as a means of game improvement. Now, here's Kåre Gjaldbæk, talking about a critical concept, a critical practice and his own development. Those of you really paying attention will realize that we recorded Kare's audio.
Kåre Gjaldbæk: So, the one- the one moment, I can point at to say that was the moment where I think my game improved the most was, uh, during our, uh, training sessions for the 2003, uh, Junior World Championships. And we were doing, um, the Danish Federation organized these, um, uh, training events and-and tournaments where we were together with the open teams and the women's teams, uh, maybe the seniors too. I can't remember how many were, uh, were involved back then. And, uh, there were different, um, speakers, and one was, um, [unintelligible 00:40:13] Madison who was a, uh, slightly older than junior at that point, so he was the junior generation before me. Um, and, uh, he was giving a talk about the mental aspects of the game. And, uh, some of it was a beautiful poetry about keeping your partner's mental buckets full of what-- I don't know, um. It was a pretty picture that I'm sure everybody, uh, every love. Uh, but he said something very co-concrete that, um, that a simple mind like mine, um, found really helpful. And that was, um, make the agreement with your partner that no matter what happens at the table, good or bad, just make it a rule that you don't say anything.
John McAllister: Adam Wildavsky calls this practice the Keller Convention and claims to have invented it. Negley said that one of the things from your notes and I- and I like this is that you-you, do not discuss-- You do- you do not. You-you, do not discuss hands at the table.
Adam Wildavsky: Right, I mean, that's the notes, but, you know, and that goes on my convention card too. It's-it's-it's really the only Bridge Convention that I've invented. It's not even the convention, it's-it's-it's-it's an approach to the game.
John McAllister: Yeah.
Adam Wildavsky: But yeah, I-I started, um, back in the early '80s. I was playing in the San Diego nationals. I was playing with a guy from, uh-- we'd met when we were both in college, and he was a pretty good player, yeah. But he-he wanted to discuss every hand.
John McAllister: Oh. [crosstalk].
Adam Wildavsky: And not only did he want to discuss every hand but, you know, right after the hand, but he was not a good analyst. He was a much better player than he was an analyst. You know, most of us are the other way around, but, you know, he-he- so-so, you know, it seemed as to me as if he always had something to say, and it was always wrong.
John McAllister: [laughs].
Adam Wildavsky: I think that's an exaggeration.
John McAllister: Right, yeah.
Adam Wildavsky: But I didn't even care.
John McAllister: Yeah, yeah.
Adam Wildavsky: What I really found, and-and this is-- I've never played golf, and I'm told this is similar to golf. In golf, you have to play the current hole. You can't think about the previous ones. So, you know in Bridge, I'm like barely good enough to play one hand at a time. I can't be thinking about previous hands.
John McAllister: Got you. Yeah.
Adam Wildavsky: So, you know, a hand that's in the past, I want to be in the past.
John McAllister: Right.
Adam Wildavsky: And, you know, every tournament we play we get hand records. If we plan on Bridge base is even better, 'cause we get a hand record and the complete bidding and play record.
John McAllister: Right.
Adam Wildavsky: So, there's certainly, more than enough opportunity to go over the hand as much as you want. I just don't think that it's-- the table was the right place for it. And you know, and if I have, you know, if I have to-- You know, a lot of the time people are discussing hands at the table because they want to justify their actions.
John McAllister: Mm-hmm.
Adam Wildavsky: And, you know, I don't care. You know, maybe I did the right thing. Maybe I did the wrong thing. Maybe my partner did. It doesn't matter. It doesn't, and if we got a good result or a bad result, it doesn't matter whose fault it is. We still have to play the next hand regardless.
John McAllister: Right.
Adam Wildavsky: And, you know, I think a lot- a lot of newer players, at least, you know, when I-- you know, I haven't played in Bridge Clubs for a while, not regularly anyway. But the newer players take their cue from the older players. And the older players, a lot of them will yell at their partners, or otherwise be unkind. We don't see too much yelling at the opponents now, but, you know, you wanna project. Anytime there's a bad result, it has to be a partner's fault.
John McAllister: Mm-hmm.
Adam Wildavsky: But, you know, that's not- you know, even if it were true, it's not productive. Your partner is not gonna play any better if you yell at them.
John McAllister: Mm-hmm.
Adam Wildavsky: Plum people imagine that so. But what I find is, the people who tend to yell the loudest are the people who are the least secure about their own game.
John McAllister: Mm-hmm.
Adam Wildavsky: You know, this is probably true in other ar- other areas of life, but it's Bridge where I notice it.
John McAllister: Right.
Adam Wildavsky: And you know, and I- and I, you know, I know this partly from introspection, 'cause when I was young, I did the same thing. And you know, I looked at the other players and, you know. My partner and I would get a bad result, and I knew that I was a wonderful player. So, if we had a bad result, it must be the partner's fault. And, you know, if I played the wrong card, well, it must be something partner did or didn't do that had inspired me to play that wrong card. You know, even though, objectively, I knew that, you know, I made lots of mistakes and-and I had a lot to learn, but, you know, in the heat of the moment, you always want to, uh, project anything that bad ha- bad that happens on the partner, and that, you know, that maybe protects your ego, but it's not a useful way to improve, or even to get good results in the moment.
John McAllister: When you're locked in, like my next guest, Migry describes herself having been on this hand. You don't need to explain your actions to partner.
Migry Zur Campanile: You know, we were talking about accomplishment and bad results. There is one match that I'll never forget. We were playing the NEC in Japan, not you and I. I was playing the ZNC in Japan.
John McAllister: Yeah.
Migry Zur Campanile: The final. I was playing with one of my favorite partners from Israel, Michael Barel.
John McAllister: Yeah.
Migry Zur Campanile: And we were leading by more than 16, so it's one quarter to go. And the first board, the Japanese opponents bid a slam by what, 10% and they made it.
John McAllister: Uh-huh.
Migry Zur Campanile: With the second board, they bid the game on 10% and they made it. The third board, they open a wake, now trump and I had six spades and four hearts, and I had to decide if to show majors or to show one major. So, I showed one major, and sure enough, I played there when we were called for a game in the other major.
John McAllister: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Migry Zur Campanile: And I knew that the result would not be duplicated as at the table because they are not going to open one or trump.
John McAllister: Very well, well, well, well.
Migry Zur Campanile: And then the next hand, we doubled one no trump, and it made. And everything went like that, and I was feeling that I'm losing a lot of weight during this match, which is good. [laugher] And as the IMPS were slipping away and slimming away, and I knew that, oh yeah, maybe tight now, maybe a little minus. And this was really a nightmarish set. Everything they did was right. Everything we did was wrong, and not that we did something necessarily bad, but it was just wrong.
John McAllister: Yeah.
Migry Zur Campanile: And then comes the last board, and Michael led something, and I won the trick. And despite, of the disastrous set, I forced myself to sit there and think-
John McAllister: Right.
Migry Zur Campanile: -when all I wanted was to finish that quarter.
John McAllister: Right, right.
Migry Zur Campanile: I wanted to just run out and say, "I've had enough of it."
John McAllister: Yeah, yeah.
Migry Zur Campanile: And I sat there for 10 minutes until I figured out how to break a squeeze.
John McAllister: Wow.
Migry Zur Campanile: And that's sort of my one moment in Bridge that I'm proud of.
John McAllister: Wow.
Migry Zur Campanile: Not about the defense, but that I managed to do it under those very unfavorable circumstances.
John McAllister: Mm-hmm, wow.
Migry Zur Campanile: And we won and then what-what's-
John McAllister: Wow.
Migry Zur Campanile: -the ones that matter so, yeah. That's my happiest experience.
John McAllister: Mm-hmm. You might've heard Migry mention that she and I were partners in that clip, and our partnership almost didn't get started because I remember speaking to her on the phone for the first time, and not being able to understand her. Gavin Wolpert describes our next guest. Steve Weinstein has having a relentless work ethic at the table.
Steve Weinstein: Well, it really helps that my partner is without a doubt unquestionably one of the best players in the world. So, you start out with that. And we play hard, and we craft as hard, and you know, we try to really-- like, if you're gonna define us as pair, I would say, our biggest strength is we consistently hit the ball hard to the opponent's backend.
John McAllister: Mm-hmm.
Steve Weinstein: And we-we-we don't really make a lot of unfortunate errors. Compared-- I mean, everybody makes a lot of errors.
John McAllister: Mm.
Steve Weinstein: But comparatively, we don't make a ton of one of those errors.
John McAllister: Mm-hmm, um.
Steve Weinstein: I would say that that is what our biggest strength is, would be the lack of it being a huge weakness.
John McAllister: Like how often does Bobby do something where you're like, "Man, that was really cool?"
Steve Weinstein: Uh, you know, definitely, reasonably often, like, you-you know, he does plays, or, like he makes bids and stuff and I'm like, you know, thinking about it, and like normally when we screw up, we don't go over-- We al-almost never go over it right away, and both of us are pretty good at reflecting on what went wrong and working out like, you know, if I misplay hand, Bobby misplays a hand, you know, we don't really have-- need to say anything. Each of us will work out what we did wrong, and, you know. But if there's some defensive carding situation, we'll go over it. But-but, you know, he's for many years amazed me with some of the greatness that he's shown.
John McAllister: Like if he- if he misplays a hand, for example, will you go into the hand in your mind, and like see why, like, the reason, like, and come up with your own reasons for why he would have done that or do you- do you even bother with that?
Steve Weinstein: Um, uh, well, I certainly don't do it at that time. You know, when I'm thinking about the hands later, I'll sometimes do it, or sometimes won't, but you know, I-I try to relax a lot as dummy. You know, it's not like I'm worried about how Bobby Levin plays a bridge in. [laughter] So, you know, there're certainly times that I've reviewed hands and stuff like that, and I'll try to think about what he was thinking at the time or why he did what he did. And oftentimes, there's, you know, some great reason that I didn't really notice at the table. And, but like I said, I don't spend a lot of time thinking about his hands, you know. I sp- I think about my hands and the hands that we misdefended or we misbid, and-and those are the ones that I'm most concerned about.
John McAllister: On the other end of the spectrum, Dave Caprera plays bridge mostly with his wife, Annie.
Dave Caprera: I've been playing bridge for-- oh, I gotta think about this. 1978, I played my first duplicate game. I had just finished undergraduate, and it was very fortunate that I had not learned about duplicate as an undergrad because there would have been a fairly good chance I might not have made it through undergrad. Uh, but after undergrad, uh, and with Annie, my wife of 42 years, then my girlfriend, uh, we started playing duplicate, uh, and I've loved it and I've played ever since. Give you a bridge hand, you pick up, stiff ace, five small, King in one, King 10, fifth. Got it? Stiff ace, five small, King in one, King 10, fifth, partner opens a diamond, you bid a heart. Partner bids a spade, you don't like your choices a whole lot. I'll tell you, you tend to open fairly aggressively, so I'm going to impose notrump on. So you bid a notrump and partner bids two clubs. So now this hand that was kind of an awkward misfitting hand has all of the sudden become humongous. Uh, and the question is, what do you bid over two clubs? Now, I'm playing with my wife in a, uh, in the Denver regional, and this was some years ago. Uh, I don't think we would have-- I hope we wouldn't have the same problem today. Uh, but I came up with a master bid of, um, three hearts, uh, what's sometimes called a bloomer. Uh, my hand has gotten much better as result to partners two club bid, and I wanted to make the strongest bit I could in support of clubs. Unfortunately, uh, we weren't on the same page and she passed, and three hearts was not a very successful contract. After the, um, uh, after the session was over, I went to my friend, Mike Passell, Mike, a world class player. But by then, I think the word had gotten around a little bit, uh, and so Mike had probably heard the story. I asked Mike, "Mike, you pick up this hand, blah, blah, blah. What do you bid over two clubs?" And Mike's very quick, and in a shot, he said, "Well, I don't bid three hearts because if I do, I'll end up sleeping on the couch."
John McAllister: Three hearts. Um.
Dave Caprera: Yeah. [chuckles]
John McAllister: Um, gosh, um-- [chuckles]
Dave Caprera: And I've given it to a lot of people and everybody bids-- everybody who wants to bid something. I mean, if you had to bid just one bid for your life, probably five clubs, although you could construct minimums that make, um, six clubs. Should four clubs be forcing in the sequence? Uh, probably, I don't know. I don't have that agreement with anyone. Frankly, if I were to do it again, I would still bid three hearts. I believe that is the best technical bid, but as I coach my juniors, do not make a bid unless you have an agreement with partner. [chuckles] Juniors do that a lot. Um, and so it was a mistake for me to have done it at that point in time, I guess. Uh, but I, uh, I think I could do it with Annie tomorrow and I wouldn't have a problem.
John McAllister: What did you actually make on the hand?
Dave Caprera: You know, I don't remember. [chuckles] Probably five clubs, five or six clubs. I honestly-- she had some sort of... she was a four by one. I remember the hearts were, uh, it was at five one heart fit. Um, so, I mean, if he had the stiff heart rather than having, you know, a fifth minor suit card. Um, it probably only made five clubs.
John McAllister: Did you make three hearts?
Dave Caprera: Nah, nah, I got slaughtered. [chuckles]
John McAllister: Were you vulnerable?
Dave Caprera: This was-- I'm going to tell you this was like eight years ago. Um, can't-can't really remember, I mean--
John McAllister: [laughs] What did she say when she put down the dummy? [laughs]
Dave Caprera: Um, yeah, uh, you know, I played bridge with my wife-- I play bridge with other partners as well, but primarily my wife, um, and playing with your spouses is sometimes very difficult. Uh, you know, if you're- if you're playing with a partner with whom you don't have a personal relationship, you can talk about hands and deals and problems I think a little bit more rationally and with a little bit less emotion. Um, frankly, I don't think either Annie-Annie or I, uh, is very good, um, at, uh, at, uh, keeping our emotions to ourselves. Uh, it's something that we definitely have to work on. Um, you know, you watch the top players and if something goes wrong-- watch Bob Hamman something goes wrong, you think he was watching paint dry is awesome. Uh, well, playing with my wife, it's not exactly like that. And you sometimes have conversations that get a little out of hand, you know. I might say, "Why didn't you play-- why didn't you play the seven of diamonds?" And she might say, "Why didn't you put out the garbage last night?" You know, it-it-- there-there's, uh, the interpersonal relationships of playing with your spouse that sometimes-sometimes make it more difficult. So, what happened at the table? Oh, probably, uh, armageddon-
John McAllister: [laughs]
Dave Caprera: -you know, um.
John McAllister: Just to really show the contrast, here's Stevie again, talking about playing with Paul Solloway.
Steve Weinstein: He was one of the all-time greatest bridge players. He was such a- such a hero, such a, you know, original, great ethics, great player, great tempo, great partner, great opponent, I mean, huge winner, greatest talents ever. Um, he's the reason I actually started playing the Regionals is-is at some point, a number of years ago. And it was for a Bob or Joyce Hampton team. I play on Joyce's team who I've become very close with now in some Regionals, like four or five Regionals a year. But Solloway called me up and said, "Would you like to play a regional with me?" And I hadn't played a regional in like 10 years or something like that, you know, ‘cause I was working, and, um, I was like, "Wow, let me call you back." And I'm like, "Liz, Paul Soloway just asked me to play in a regional with him." And she's like, "Well, you've gotta play." I'm like, "Well, yeah, I got play. I mean, I'm just like, I'm so excited. This is amazing." And it was like, you know, I went and I played with Paul on his regional team and then it was-- then-then I started playing with him. He was my semi-regular regional partner on either Joyce for Bob Hampton teams. Well, Joyce fell him out, um, and, uh, just like-- just the way he composed himself and his demeanor and his unflappability, his personality is just so terrific. I remember one time we were playing and, um, we're playing a superior that let's just say Paul and I were both pretty sure we're not on the up and up. And [chuckles] Paul one time like pulled two pass cards by mistake. And I said, "That's how we do our minimums compared to our maximums. How do you guys do it?" [chuckles] And Paul just, like, looked at me at first, I thought he was going to kill me, and then he just started laughing. [laughter]
Steve Weinstein: Like-like he couldn't decide whether he was going to kill me or hug me.
John McAllister: [laughs] How did- how did the other pair respond?
Steve Weinstein: You know, sometimes you hear things and you're just like, sort of like, I don't know if I get it or I'm in shock or somebody says something that you don't know how to respond to. And it just like, there was like silence, but it's one of those things that they probably came back to like later that night and said, "Oh shit, that's what he said," you know. Like, I don't think that it was like clear what I was saying at the time to them, that's my guess. I know in my experience is when people would have said something to me that have caught me off guard where I'm like, you know, you tilt your head a little bit like a dog, you know, and then mo-- and then like later you'll be like, "Oh shit, that's what was said," you know, "damn dog." [chuckles]. Like also, I just remember playing with him, I wish I remembered the way I'm terrible at remembering bridge hands. Like Lew Stansby can remember every bridge hand he played, but [chuckles] I usually remembers the disasters and that's about it. Um, but we were defending some contract and it seemed like he was like-- he led this thing and it seemed like we're just gonna catch this and we're gonna catch this and we're gonna catch this, and then hope to get that. And then like a trick to, he just like instantly plays a club, and I'm sitting there for like five minutes like, "Why would he play a club? Like this doesn't add up to me." And then like eventually I worked it out, which I mean-- I'm-- I'm pleased with myself for working it out, but after five minutes, I worked out that he was breaking this up in the same place we used thingamajiggy-
John McAllister: Wow.
Steve Weinstein: -whatever.
John McAllister: Wow.
Steve Weinstein: And he just did it instantly and it was-
John McAllister: Wow.
Steve Weinstein: -like you only play to beat the hand, and I was in awe. I was like, "That is pretty scary." [laughs]
John McAllister: Wow.
Steve Weinstein: You know, he was such a great natural player and he was so ethical and he was just so beyond reproach to me.
John McAllister: Hmm.
Steve Weinstein: You know, such a great personality that I-I miss him to this day and never took his phone number out of my, uh, my cellphone, yeah.
John McAllister: One of my favorite things about bridge is just how accessible all these great players are. You can find the best of the best at the North American Bridge Championships, what we like to call the Nationals, here's bridge teacher, Morris Jones.
Morris Jones: I tell my beginning bridge players and students who say you want to have the, uh, best time of your life, make plans to go to the Nationals. [laughs] Um, and the-they think I'm crazy. But, you know, you go to the Nationals and you see not just a-a-a small novice newcomer game, you see a ballroom full of them.
John McAllister: Right.
Morris Jones: And, uh, it's-it's a magical experience. You get the vendors with the books and making name tags and badges and-and, uh, and that the-the speakers and the talks and all of that so, um, you know, not many can be convinced. I re-- I remember at the end of, uh, at the end of backwash squeeze, how he had talk his-- to his new player partner into going to Chicago to the Nationals. Um, but-but you get there and it's this magical environment, you're sud-suddenly surrounded with your people. You hear bridge talk-
John McAllister: Right.
Morris Jones: -everywhere and-and those things and-and it is- it is great. It's not necessary-- [chuckles] like I say, it's not that you're going to do great necessarily, but it's-- we know bridge, bridge is a numbers game. The more you play, the more good results you're going to get eventually. If-- I'm sorry about that-that tournament in Toronto, Scott Campbell is setting for the midnight zip knockout.
John McAllister: Yeah.
Morris Jones: -I said, "You know, Scott, I'm here." He paired me up with, uh, uh, Dan Storch from the ACBL, their public-publicity chair-
John McAllister: Oh, yes, I know.
Morris Jones: He's just a delightful fellow. Yeah. And, uh, Dan said, "Listen, I brought a bottle of malt back here, so [laughs] so we're good." And [chuckles] Dan and I had a couple of pickup teammates.
John McAllister: Yeah.
Morris Jones: I had no idea who they were, it didn't matter. But in the game, were a lot of the kids from the youth bridge in ABC that was gonna go on the following weekend.
John McAllister: Yeah.
Morris Jones: Like that whole tournament was full of kids, and it was delightful to see.
John McAllister: Yeah.
Morris Jones: Uh, and Dan and I managed to win the first three matches. And we got to the fourth with our teammates, and sure enough, I'm sitting down at the table against Zach Grossack.
John McAllister: Ah.
Morris Jones: -from Double Dummy.
John McAllister: Right.
Morris Jones: And [chuckles] and he gets into a bad three no-trump contract and I set him, you know.
John McAllister: Yeah.
Morris Jones: And Dan looks across the table at me and he says, "Do you know what this would mean if I got to go back to work on Monday and tell him I beat Zach Grossack in a knockout?" [laughter]
Morris Jones: Of course, that three no-trump board was the only good one we got around. [chuckles]
John McAllister: Oh, man.
Morris Jones: -so we didn't get to say we beat Zach Grossack, but we played him in the final of a knockout.
John McAllister: Speaking of Zach Grossack, here he is talking about playing with his bridge hero, Zia Mahmood.
Zach Grossack: Playing Zia in DC. It's on Vinita Gupta's team and I'm playing for a guy named Larry Lebowitz, who I think you've met.
John McAllister: Adam's larry?
Zach Grossack: Adam's Larry is-- new up and comer, um, great guy. We a-are ahead, and Larry leaves the match at halftime. We're like ahead by 20. We keep the lead in the third quarter and we're playing against Zia. Like we're doing good stuff and Zia gets me in a board and I'm like, "Oh my God, he's great." He like open, like, something, he totally got me on the hand.
John McAllister: Yeah.
Zach Grossack: So, then I get him back and later, I like spec double with three known, we get 100 after he opens an notrumps. He's just like-- well, anyway, we end up losing by like this fraction, like, by like three or four.
John McAllister: Hmm.
Zach Grossack: Um and after mine, he says, "Okay, we'll play." He comes up to me and says, "Okay, we'll play." And I say-- and he's like, "What's the next pair game? And I say,"Blue Ribbons." He says, "Fine, you're on." So, I had this amazing privilege of playing with him but the-the-- I-I [laugh] He is- he's tough- he is tough because it's when you're playing with someone who's-who's better than you, you know. Especially, for me, like me playing with someone who's better than me, like knows, like, better than me and like knows more than me, that was like-- it's, like, hard for me to play my own game because I play so out of-
John McAllister: Hmm.
Zach Grossack: -my mind. There's one session we had one [chuckles] we had one great session, but their first-- we have this amazing story of where like people do terrible things again Zia. It's just-- the same effect he has on his partners he has with his opponents; people do terrible things. We have the total misunderstanding to this horrible slam that has no play-- that has some play, actually, but on the lie of the cards, none whatsoever. The opponent revokes once and Zia is, you know, Zia's going to play and Zia knows he's going down on the brakes, whatever, goes to play something, the opponent revokes. So, Zia he says "No, no, no take it back. We're not going to win like that."
John McAllister: Right.
Zach Grossack: So the-the opponent picks up his cards, the play keeps going, you know, he's now he's trying to get up for down one and down two and Zia is given some lines and we got revoked again, and it's extremely clear it's revoked again. Now-- And so we stopped for a second, Zia stalls for a second, I'm kind of, uh, in-in my own spaces and Zia-- and the play keeps going. And the guy just like clearly, like two tricks later, shows up with a stupid card and that suit. And I-I, you know, Zia looks up at me and I'm sitting there. He looks to me like, "Is this dead hand?" This dead hand face looks at me like-- and I have to leave. like I just start dying. I never laughed so hard in my life, I get up from the table. I'm like crying cause I'm laughing so hard. I needed like five full minutes to come back, the director comes over finally cause it's like- it's like- it's like Twilight Zone. We go, "Plus 1460."
[laughter]
Adam Grossack: And it's like, oh my god, it's like magic playing with this dude.
John McAllister: Let's say that you take Mojo's advice and you go to the nationals and it's the third from last day and you don't have a game so you're bumming around. That was the situation that Anam Tebha found herself in. Granted, she's a pretty good player. So, literally, Zia comes up to you and says, "Hey, Anam, would you like to play in the- in the next Swiss or somebody told him that you were free or like what?
Anam Tebha: I'm not sure how it all happened. All I know is I got asked to play, and I was not about to say no. It was Billy Miller who came up to me and was like, "So, you wanna play with Zia?" I was like, "Yes."
John McAllister: So, you had- you had agree to play on the team already, and Billy came up to you-
Anam Tebha: Uh, no.
John McAllister: -and said we've got your partner?
Anam Tebha: There was no agreement. I was just loitering around the playing area with no game, and, uh, they had just got knocked out. And Billy came up to me and he's like, "So, do you wanna play with Zia?" And I said, "Am I supposed to say no to that? It's just a rhetorical question."
John McAllister: [laughs]
Anam Tebha: Um, [chuckles] and, so then I met up with Zia. He gave me his system notes with his-
John McAllister: Yeah.
Anam Tebha: -and-
John McAllister: Yeah.
Anam Tebha: -he's like, "Tell me what you want to play out of this." And we met the next day and maybe a couple of hours before we had to play and discussed our card, and then there we were.
John McAllister: How much of the notes did you play?
Anam Tebha: We played everything in the notes except his one notrump structure.
John McAllister: Why did you not play the one notrump structure?
Anam Tebha: Um, he had-- he was not playing like, uh, very standard one notrump structure. There were relays after the transfers that have dif-different im-implications.
John McAllister: Hmm, yeah.
Anam Tebha: So, rather than playing a totally artificial relay str- relay structure beyond the initial transfers, I decided that probably the best way to not lose was to not have the system disaster-
John McAllister: Mm-hmm.
Anam Tebha: -but everything else we played. So, I actually left the one notrump stuff for last because I figured that's probably the most standard thing ever. And I-
John McAllister: Hmm.
Anam Tebha: -read all the other little agreements about you know, Jacoby or game tries and slam tries and all this other stuff I read and was fine with. I left the one notrump and the two notrump struc-structure for the last thing because it-- that's the thing I can usually just glance over and be like, "Okay, I can remember, like, all this stuff."
John McAllister: Yeah.
Anam Tebha: But I got a surprise when I read these notes. And I was like, "Hmm," and, you know, it was like five pages of totally random relays that I was like, "Let's not do this."
John McAllister: [laughs]
Anam Tebha: But all of the other stuff, the small agreements, little nuanced inferences that were in the notes, all of that we played.
John McAllister: Hmm. And how did you- how did you two play?
Anam Tebha: It was mostly good. He was a very kind partner to me. And, um, if I was a little bit soft on the board or whatever, could have done better, or we had a weird result, he was nothing but kind, so that-that helped. The first couple of matches I was really nervous. Um-
John McAllister: [laughs]
Anam Tebha: But after that, it seemed okay.
John McAllister: You were nervous?
Anam Tebha: So, yeah. Um-
John McAllister: Like?
Anam Tebha: Like second-guessing what I should do and, you know, the-the standard thing that comes with nerves.
John McAllister: Yeah.
Anam Tebha: Uh, but then I was like, "Well, I'm just gonna do what I do and it doesn't matter who my partner is."
John McAllister: Hmm.
Anam Tebha: And that was a winning formula for that ev-- for that event.
John McAllister: Did you-- like, did you ever say to Zia, like, I mean, did you ever express your, like-- I don't-- I-- well, it sounds like it was a thrill for you. Did you express-
Anam Tebha: Yeah.
John McAllister: Did you express that to him?
Anam Tebha: Um, so you've seen me at the bridge table, right?
John McAllister: Yeah.
Anam Tebha: I- like, I look miserable like no matter what.
John McAllister: [laughs]
Anam Tebha: Or as you put it the one time, I'm very intense.
John McAllister: I don't remember saying that but I-I can imagine having said it.
Anam Tebha: And um, so I don't think Zia got to see this intense or serious nature that I had because I was so happy that I got asked to be on this team and I was playing with this person that it was probably like the-- one of the very few times I looked happy at a bridge table.
John McAllister: [laughs] Did you-- like, what did your parents say when you won this event?
Anam Tebha: Um, they didn't think it was a big deal. Uh, they don't really know much about bridge, so to them, it's like winning some competition which they're familiar with. I've won other competitions and they're like, "Well, congratulations." They didn't know how-- and they still don't know how huge that was.
John McAllister: Since we're on the subject of Zia, I asked Hall of Famer Michael Rosenberg about playing in the Bermuda Bowl with him.
Michael Rosenberg: I played three times with Zia. The first time, uh, we were fourth, the second time we were third, the third time we were second, then he broke up with me and he won.
John McAllister: [laughs] The Bermuda Bowl is the event I would most like to win. Here's Aussie star Nabil Edgtton talking about playing in it.
Nabil Edgtton: The Bowl was so fun. I like-- I love that tournament. The two times I've ever played it it's just like I don't know. That's-- As a bridge player, I live for that kind of thing and it's just something so awesome about just playing the best and every little thing mattering. And like kind of just testing yourself being-- kind of getting all that time to prepare for it and then just, like, going out and like testing yourself, it's so cool.
John McAllister: If you're looking for a mentor in bridge, you can't do much better than Michael Rosenberg. We are very fortunate to have him leading the US junior program.
Michael Rosenberg: Here's what happened. In 2013, uh, I was asked to be a mentor in this program which-which had just started and I-I got into it. There was like three or four mentors and it was pretty disorganized and-and I decided what I would do because I would take a more hands-on role so I eventually started, uh, conscripting more mentors. I was trying to get a lot of good players to be mentors and having it be more organized in terms of the whole process. And Barry Goren and I, um, basically took over the organization, uh, at that point in 2013. And then at some point, he dropped out so it's been just me for a while now. And Debbie was also very involved in the beginning for the first, uh, couple of years. I think she was very involved, and then she became more involved in her own Silicon Valley bri-bridge project so she-she-she kind of dropped away from-from-from what I'm doing. She became more and more involved as time went on. I started just working as a mentor with one group and then I eventually just took over the whole thing.
John McAllister: Is it a job for you? I mean, is it joy- is it joyful? What's, uh, like—
Michael Rosenberg: It's mostly joy. Um, it's certainly a job I spent a lot of time on it. Um, and it's-it's very-- I've never- I never expected to get a huge production out of it because this-- teaching bridge is really difficult.
John McAllister: Yeah.
Michael Rosenberg: And my hope that-that I-I somehow-- What I say gets through-- A little of what I say gets through to a lot of people and for a few people, that they really-really come-come out and learn a lot and become-become experts in the game. So, I certainly work a lot with the Grossacks when they were-- they were alre- they were already good players, but I think they did learn from me. And the best example I have for-for what it takes I've had is this one junior who signed onto the program a couple of years ago and he has sent me literally, uh, 5,000 emails. He sent me about 60 just last Thursday.
John McAllister: 60?
Michael Rosenberg: So, yes, he said he sends a lot of emails and I-I can see that he's-he's obviously changed so much from when I started with him. He's learned-he's learned a lot and there's still so much to learn. I like to say in bridge, there is about 10 billion things to learn and even if you learn four or five things, there's still five or six things you don't know.
John McAllister: Right.
Michael Rosenberg: I don't think anybody really yet has come close to mastering bridge. There's still tons of things that-tha-that people don't know or unders-- And there's lots of things that people think they do understand which they understand wrongly. If you approach me with the attitude that I don't know or I'm not sure, you have a much better chance of learning and coming to the truth.
John McAllister: Right.
Michael Rosenberg: So, I tell all the juniors that who-who are in the program that they can ask me any question anytime, I'll answer it. And if they all-if they all took advantage of that, then I couldn't, but they don't so I'm able to do it. Then one of the things I sort of like to do, uh, was to play for half the time and then go to a Google chat room for the other half of the time because that way, you could get more involvement from the juniors to ask them questions and have them answer and have them say what they're thinking. Whereas at the table, they'll often just not talk and they'll just listen to what you say.
John McAllister: Right, right.
Michael Rosenberg: I like to get-to get them involved in playing. And now, what we're doing for many of the groups which I think is quite a good thing is let's say they have a team match of 16 boards, so the mentor will tell each of the eight juniors to write up two hands themselves and then-- in an email, and then they'll have a back and forth comment about what they write up. The best mentors for-for-for these matters have been, uh, the best mentor is Dave Caprera. He's gotten quite an amazing amount of feedback from juniors and involvement from juniors that-that almost no other mentor has done including myself. Um, he-he's done an amazing job.
John McAllister: In addition to having Michael Rosenberg as a mentor while he was in the junior program, our next guest, Adam Grossack, is fortunate to have both Jeff Meckstroth who talked about his partnership with Eric Rodwell earlier bring him along in the professional ranks.
Adam Grossack: We play with a very nice couple, um, and Eric plays- Eric plays with the wife and Jeff plays with the husband. And when Jeff is playing with the husband, I play with Eric and-and vice versa, I'd play with Jeff when Eric is playing with [inaudible 01:17:16].
John McAllister: So, did you get a call or an email from one of them saying, "Hey, we-we would like to make you a part of this team."
Adam Grossack: I've-I've had like multiple different-- so-so basically, here's-here's how my and Zach's first encounters with-with Jeff and Eric worked.
John McAllister: Yeah.
Adam Grossack: Um, we played against him at the Spingold's two years in a row when we had sort of-- we had kind of a-- I think we were actually, one of the years we were playing on a team with Sam Dinkin and, uh, [inaudible 01:17:47] , and we had some-- we had a lot of fun against them. And we-we played hard and they-they liked us, they took a liking to us and, you know, we were laughing while we were playing and, um, they liked us. They liked- they liked our tempo, they knew that, like, we were very ethical and that's like very, very important to them. Um, just-just, you know, doing the right thing when it- when it comes to card play because there's-there's different levels of ethical and-and Zach and I sort of work really hard to be like hyper ethical. Which almost like all bridge players, you'd like to think do that, but, you know, they don't miss anything at the table right. And those types of things from young people, that's what they really like to see and I think that they-- that that's something that they're really happy about and we-- they took a liking to us. And, you know, anytime we had questions, we would- we would ask them, um, and try to get this. So they-they did a lot of-- They've done so many things and we've just like become friends even over-over the last couple years. So, Jeff knew that I was becoming a bridge professional, um, after-after work, um, so I ended up contacting him asking for advice on what, you know, like what the best things to do and all that sort of stuff and Jeff was like, "Actually, I may have an opportunity for you," and that's kind of how it worked.
John McAllister: Right. That's got to be pretty validating for you starting out as a pro to get an opportunity to play with Jeff Meckstroth who is very, very near the top—
Adam Grossack: Yeah.
John McAllister: [laughs] You know, like, the greatest of all time, he's like very, very much in that conversation.
Adam Grossack: Oh, yeah. Um, I've-- And-and when I play with them, I've-I've learned so much. I mean, the first tournament that we played in Gatlinburg, we did well, we won the tournament. And-and I was just like taking notes, writing down hands, like going through-- I've-- I'm working really, really hard to take the advice that they give me and put them to heart. And I think like the second or third tournament, one of them I had sort of a tough tournament where we didn't win any of the knockouts, and it wasn't- it wasn't any particular thing but we had a lot, uh, there were a lot of things that I could have done better. And, you know, I just, I-I study and I learn from my mistakes. I'm not, you know, bridge is a very humbling game, so I-
John McAllister: Right.
Adam Grossack: -wasn't, you know, I-I-I'm just, I'm-I'm there to learn and they know that I work really, really hard when I play and they sort of know what I bring to the table. I'm not a perfect bridge player, but I-I work hard and I'm not going to make a mistake out of laziness, you know, um, and I'm-I'm constantly looking for ways to improve my own bridge game.
John McAllister: For much of his success in both open and junior competition, Adam has played with his brother, Zach. So, when did you realize that you were gonna be, like Zach Grossack was gonna be your, uh, was gonna be sitting across from you for the better part of your bridge playing career? How old were you when that happened?
Adam Grossack: Um, so Zach initially was resistant to learning bridge, um, but not for any particular reason. It's just, you know, uh, it was something my mom and I played and my older brother didn't play, and my dad didn't play, so Zach was sort of like not really that into it, but then eventually he tried it and he really liked it.
John McAllister: Yeah.
Adam Grossack: And then he started playing and then he would bid like very, very, very, very by the seat of the hand, then it would just like piss me off so I just wouldn't play with him.
John McAllister: [laughs].
Adam Grossack: Um, and, uh, eventually he-he learned how to bid. I mean he s- he s- he still- he still struggles with this concept, uh, on a- on a daily basis but-but he knows like he's a very, very good bidder now. Um, he is very creative in auctions, um, sometimes arguably too creative, but he's very, very creative. Um, so when did I know that I was going to be playing with Zach more? I mean, when we started winning a l-- a-a bunch.
John McAllister: Hmm.
Adam Grossack: When we were younger, I mean, we just started doing very well. I mean, we grew up in the same- the same bedroom.
John McAllister: [laughs] I didn't know that.
Adam Grossack: So-- Yeah, we grew up in the same bed-- we shared the same bedroom on for [inaudible 01:22:15]. Like, we would talk-- we've talked bridge so much, we just un- we understand bridge together.
John McAllister: Hmm.
Adam Grossack: Um, it's-it's like-- it's just, yeah, we do-- we very rarely have misunderstandings about stuff. It's not- it's not really possible.
John McAllister: Yeah.
Adam Grossack: Because we have like the same-- we have the same understanding.
John McAllister: Sometimes Adam and Zach go at each other. Here's Nabil Edgtton talking about a novel approach to partnership harmony.
Nabil Edgtton: I had a really good chat yesterday with, um, a good friend of mine, bridge player Liam Milne, um.
John McAllister: Yeah.
Nabil Edgtton: Few people know him from Bridge Winners and that kind of thing. Um, but it was about just working in a partnership and, um, dealing with adversity together, and that kind of thing and some, like, really good things came out of it. Um, I guess, uh, with my partner, Andy Hung and I, we, like, put so much work into practicing for the Bowl and that kind of thing and I'm just constantly-- Basically our dialogue between each other is a lot of just me trying to, "Okay, we can-- how do we improve on this? How do we improve on that? What about this system's flaw, blah blah, blah, blah?" I kind of just write down every little, um, every little system or auction that I find interesting we don't have agreements on. And I just realized that our, like, dialogue it's like when we first started playing bridge together, we would just, like, we just, I mean we still are. We just-- we're really good friends, we get along so well and it was just fun and that kind of thing and I realized now that, like, our dialogue is almost a bit too serious and we'd taken, like, almost-- not taking the friendship out of it, but, you know, the bridge was first, like, and, like, you know, our friendship should come first in that sense.
John McAllister: Hmm.
Nabil Edgtton: So, um, one really good bit of advice that he got from a sports psychologist, um, was just organizing partnership dates just once a week or once every two week-weeks. And the only rule is to just-- you can't about bridge and it's just cultivating that friendship or reminding, you know, yourselves that like, "Yeah, we love this game, we're really serious about it but, you know, we're friends, like, and we're doing this together." And, um, I think that's something that, um, Andy and I were missing and I-I hope that that's gonna be like a good, uh, a good step forward for us.
John McAllister: Our final segment for this best of comes from my conversation with bridge teacher Amaresh Deshpande who has the passion for teaching bridge to young people. He's even invented a bridge-like game called Hool. Here, Amaresh talks about some of the challenges of converting Hool players to bridge players. What is the trigger point that makes you decide to teach them bridge bidding instead of Hool bidding?
Amaresh Deshpande: Yeah, we have [inaudible 01:25:06] figured out, that it is a big one. When-when, uh, when do you think we are ready? I think, uh, the first step is to get people hooked, you know, because you don't want them to-- we don't want to lose them because we are now starting bidding and then [inaudible 01:25:21] , "Oh my God, this is not fun anymore." Right? So, I think it-it has to be looking for, uh, signs from that side and say, "Okay now, do you wanna learn, uh, a-a-a different way of sharing information and then arriving at the contract?" You know, Hool is really straightforward, we tell them to just share what they got, you know, five spades or whatever. So, I say there's another, uh, codified language which would take some time and, uh, some say, "Yeah, yeah, interesting, interesting." So, we already-- what's telling them that Hool is like this and bridge is not like this which is, uh-uh, is a codified language which takes some time and so if we [inaudible 01:25:56] they're-they're taking it so that, they're-they're slowly adapting with. We just don't want the dropout rates, you know. The-the teacher's I've spoken to around the world they say that they teach mini bridge they don't want to bridge, that's when they have a-a dropout rate, you know, a high [inaudible 01:26:11] rate. And that doesn't-- that's not good for us because then this kid tells other kids , "Hey, don't go there, you know, because, uh, uh, that's, you know, that-that-that-that game is-is too boring or it's-it's, uh, it's something, you know, that's making sense." So, I'm hoping that, uh, Hool bridges that and-and they get into some sort of bridge-bridge sharing and they like the idea of bri-bridge sharing. And now we can look here, "Would you like to share in bridge in a different way?" So, uh, it's a work in progress so I don't have, uh, full answers to that yet.
John McAllister: So, the kids that you've converted over to bridge bidding, have there been like a desire? Have they-- is that-- have any of them expressed like, "We wanna go back to Hool?"
Amaresh Deshpande: Yes, yes, and we immediately accepted that.
John McAllister: [laughs].
Amaresh Deshpande: [laughs] I said, "No problem, no problem. Please go back." You know, yes, yes.
John McAllister: [laughs]
Amaresh Deshpande: Because-because we don't wanna lose them. We don't wanna do that because they weren't really having a ball playing Hool.
John McAllister: Hmm.
Amaresh Deshpande: They were playing all kinds of things, but I-- if that's okay, that's okay. Look, it takes a long time to learn bridge. I think people shouldn't be in a hurry.
John McAllister: Yeah.
Amaresh Deshpande: You know that people forget it took them 20 years to get-- so what's the hurry? I mean, you're starting kids as young as, you know, 10 and 12 and 13. Let-- that's okay. Let them take three, four years even, it's okay, you know. You know they don't have to start bidding, you know, in the first year or something. That's okay if they take another year or two.
John McAllister: Hmm.
Amaresh Deshpande: It okay.
[music]
John McAllister: It has been a pleasure to revisit each one of these conversations for the purpose of sharing in our best of, and at times, it has been painful because there have been a lot of learning that has gone on in this whole forum. If you are considering ever doing a podcast, I highly recommend it because it's a great opportunity to learn. One of my favorite lessons that I've learned through this whole process is to listen. And I want to thank our guests for their patience, and for their willingness to show up and tell their stories. I wanna apologize to the guests who I've talked over and, uh, and I just, I'm so excited to-to share this with you all. I mean, I-I had a sponsor in mind, I reached out, I went hard for it and, uh, unfortunately, they didn't-they didn't feel the same way about it, um, but I am like I'm gonna share this episode with a lot of friends who are not bridge players. I'm gonna share with my mom, this will be the first episode I share with my mom. So, if you like it, please share it. Thank you to Michael Xu for all the hard work that you do as our intern including making the original selections for this show. Thank you to Brian Goodheart for doing the sound, for Nick Glennie-Smith for the, for our song. We're gonna make that-- we're gonna get that song-- we're gonna get a version of me singing that song soon and, uh, and thank you for listening.
[music]
[01:29:18] [END OF AUDIO]